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Old 06-20-2022, 05:00 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
What you describe sounds exhilarating, but not soulful.
Soulfulness is the seamless blending of man and machine to effortlessly link turn after turn perfectly. Noise does nothing to help that.


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A passing EV won't stir my soul like listening to an old Beetle take off. The auditory experience is so crucial to the character of a vehicle. Heck, if Harley's sounded like Hondas, they would no longer be made.
They both sound like they are running poorly even when properly tuned (I know from experience)

Harley still exists due to the blue-collar American-made macho image not the exhaust note. The Japanese made cruisers that sound like Harleys - they didn't sell because they were Japanese.

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Old 06-20-2022, 05:30 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Soulfulness is the seamless blending of man and machine to effortlessly link turn after turn perfectly. Noise does nothing to help that.

They both sound like they are running poorly even when properly tuned (I know from experience)

Harley still exists due to the blue-collar American-made macho image not the exhaust note. The Japanese made cruisers that sound like Harleys - they didn't sell because they were Japanese.
I have experienced what you describe of seamlessness between man and machine, and I define it differently as flow. I'm no longer riding a motorcycle; I have become the motorcycle. It's the character of the machine fading away as it bends towards the will of my muscle memory and subconscious feedback systems.

We're only disagreeing on the subjectiveness of "soul" when it comes to inanimate objects. At the end of the day, they are all mechanical appliances and by definition soulless.

As an aside, I dislike the sound of Harley's and enjoy the sewing machine precision sound of Honda 4 cylinders.

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Old 06-20-2022, 05:39 PM   #53 (permalink)
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The last large classic car show I visited was one at Portland International Raceway back in 2018.
Last weekend I want to a show and shine/swap meet. The water-cooled contingent was IIRC a few decades younger, and about as strong as the air-cooled side. What surprised me was the short-nosed Squarebacks were almost as prevalent as Beetles. All three Ghias were black over red.

The one that mad me miss having my camera was a rat rod with a three foot long shark fin [with speedholes] on the roof. If I was to guess, the owner was maybe late thirties.

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They both sound like they are running poorly even when properly tuned (I know from experience)
OEM or four-into-two-into-one header?



I miss the tweety exhaust the 36hp engine had.

My goal is to reduce the fleet to two (I'm at three at the moment); the SUPERBeetle and a new [semi-enclosed electric] FUV. The Beetle would serve as an out of town car, camper/tow vehicle for the FUV.

Edit: I use 'sewing machine sound' to describe the boxer four's hum at cruising speed.
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Old 06-20-2022, 07:55 PM   #54 (permalink)
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As an aside, I dislike the sound of Harley's and enjoy the sewing machine precision sound of Honda 4 cylinders.

F9 video clipped
Ah - a Canadian telling us why Americans buy Harleys. He did get there in the end "Closed-minded, that is the Harley Style". Resistant to change and go into full freak-out mode at the smallest changes. (The faithful's response to Harley making a 60 degree liquid-cooled engine or electric motorcycle today)


Of course he left out that the Japanese copied the Harley sound right down to the 45 degree V-twin with single pin cranks and twin wasted spark ignition systems. They also copied the look, and for good measure made their bikes more powerful and cheaper. And Americans still didn't buy them so after a few decades the Japanese gave up and stopped making traditional cruisers.

Which makes sense as anyone that thinks Fat-Boy is a good joke isn't going to buy a Japanese bike - ever.

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Old 06-20-2022, 08:08 PM   #55 (permalink)
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They both sound like they are running poorly even when properly tuned (I know from experience)
Still haven't explained this.
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Old 06-20-2022, 10:10 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Visit a classic car show in the USA and the vast majority of the owners will be from the boomer generation.
This seems to be the case when it comes to full-size American landyachts in my country, while the local Volkswagen fanbase is much more heterogeneous. And most of the classic car shows I visited in Brazil had more Volkswagens than anything else. I guess you're well aware of how the VW Beetle influenced the Brazilian market, and remains a strong cultural icon even after its phaseout.
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Old 06-21-2022, 10:15 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I agree with cripple rooster here. Big detroit iron has geezers which can afford to have the car modded in a shop to what it never was back in the '70s. I only know of a couple people my age here in reno that mod their Detroit vintage iron in their garage, and they take "forever" Case in point: guy down the street has a 69 ford with a decal saying eliminator. He says it's factory stock but has an idle lope, thrush exhaust, m60-15 tires on all 4, and a slush box. Never saw such an animal in my street racing youth.


The foriegn stuff has a base that is similair to the general population from what I have seen
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Old 06-21-2022, 11:01 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Cripple Rooster / Piotrsko - we are talking about an article from Hagerty - the USA classic car insurance company and their customers. The classic car scene in Brazil is irrelevant to the discussion as is the import tuner scene in the USA.
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Old 06-21-2022, 11:48 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Still haven't explained this.
The Harley is explained in that video.

I think the Beetle sounds tuned when it is in fact in tune.
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Old 06-21-2022, 12:35 PM   #60 (permalink)
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The Harley is explained in that video.

I think the Beetle sounds tuned when it is in fact in tune.
Yes, it is. Harley decided to do something to save money and then it became a trademark of the brand that the faithful cling to despite the disadvantage.

Part of that is simply that Harley completely gave up trying to complete on performance with the Europeans and Japanese in the 1980's. So if the bike you own isn't objectively better than the competition how do you say it is still the best? Soul and nationalism. That doesn't really work for people outside of the USA which explains how bikes that were failures in the USA (V-Rod) were quite popular in international markets.

It is nice to see Harley finally getting back to competing on performance with the Revolution engine which is a proper 60 degree, DOHC, water cooled, balanced performance engine. It has been a hit - too good actually as they are selling so well that Harley hasn't decided to add them to the EagleRider rental fleet yet. I have almost a month of rental days just sitting waiting for the day I can rent a proper motorcycle from EagleRider again. (When Harley bought control interest they mostly eliminated other brands from the fleet)

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