America Was Wrong About Ethanol - Study Shows

[redneck]

Originally Posted by wdb

Another take on ethanol with some interesting twists, especially coming from where it does -- Hagerty is an enthusiast auto insurer.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/opinio...and-the-planet

That was a good read...




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[Drifter]

Argonne National Laboratory study confirms that the initial land use change to produce more ethanol minimized the improvements in Carbon Intensity, but that those improvements are materializing now:



You can pick and choose which study you want to believe:



Aside from carbon, ethanol also reduce NOx emissions but this is somewhat offset by an increase in ground-level ozone.

[redpoint5]

I'm an EV fan, but he's not wrong about all EVs being soulless. They can be exhilarating, interesting, thrilling... but will always be soulless. The loss of the engine sound and the interesting way in which gears change and varying behavior of the engine performance depending on how its operated gives them soul that is lost when an EV speeds off making almost no sound and without any major peaks or valleys in torque, or gear changes.

The kids that grow up knowing nothing other than EVs will be absolutely delighted when they experience the old ICE vehicles and what a marvel of engineering they are. So many mechanical parts in perfect synchrony to convert expanding air into propulsion... it is like an organism with such complexity and nuance.

[freebeard]

I thought the Hagerty articles best point was Ecosystem services. Adulterating gasoline takes food out of the mouths of beef cattle.

I was just a my brother's house and he got a relay for his motorcycle from UK. It was wrapped in newsprint from the Daily Telegraph. Which had an article the headline of which called out Green Petrol.

Now I thought petrol was short for petroleum. Apparently 'green' means it's adulterated. They invented English, I guess they can do whatever they want with it.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm an EV fan, but he's not wrong about all EVs being soulless. They can be exhilarating, interesting, thrilling... but will always be soulless. The loss of the engine sound and the interesting way in which gears change and varying behavior of the engine performance depending on how its operated gives them soul that is lost when an EV speeds off making almost no sound and without any major peaks or valleys in torque, or gear changes.

The kids that grow up knowing nothing other than EVs will be absolutely delighted when they experience the old ICE vehicles and what a marvel of engineering they are. So many mechanical parts in perfect synchrony to convert expanding air into propulsion... it is like an organism with such complexity and nuance.

Or they'll abhor them and wonder what those crazy old people see in them. There are a fair number of people my grandchildrens' age (and bit older) who would love nothing more than to be able to summon a transport pod, and have it whisk them hither and thither, with a mere glimpse at their iPhone.

[freebeard]

Or they'll abhor them and wonder what those crazy old people see in them.

Tinnitus.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

The only thing in that article I found surprisingly was the last part about EVs being much more efficient than gas cars.

EVs might ultimately be more efficient, yet the ICE still has its advantages such as versatility. Odd enough, while running on biofuels which can rely on organic waste as a feedstock, eventually an ICE might fare even better when it comes to "sustainability", either directly as the motive power of a car or in a genset used to charge the batteries of an EV.

Of course they had to add in that EVs have no soul and aren’t fun to drive.

Had EVs been all that exciting, Porsche would've never had to put a fake engine sound on the Taycan.

Hagerty is a classic car insurer and write articles targeted at the old and conservative crowd you normally see at a classic car show.

Today there was a small car show near my neighborhood, with just a few cars on display and mostly Volkswagens, a '51 Chevrolet, a '48 Ford Deluxe coupé, a '62 Brazilian F-100 and a '28 Ford Model A Tudor, and 2 imports of the '90s which are still not officially considered "collectible" according to Brazilian law. Trust me, I have even seen some kinds of people who don't seem to be much interested about cars at all, taking a glance at the classics.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm an EV fan, but he's not wrong about all EVs being soulless. They can be exhilarating, interesting, thrilling... but will always be soulless. The loss of the engine sound and the interesting way in which gears change and varying behavior of the engine performance depending on how its operated gives them soul that is lost when an EV speeds off making almost no sound and without any major peaks or valleys in torque, or gear changes.

The kids that grow up knowing nothing other than EVs will be absolutely delighted when they experience the old ICE vehicles and what a marvel of engineering they are. So many mechanical parts in perfect synchrony to convert expanding air into propulsion... it is like an organism with such complexity and nuance.

To each their own. 30 years ago I loved loud bikes and cars (and have the tinnitus to prove it) Today, I find them annoying to be around a drive. My last trip to NC I had a Challenger as a rental and the exhaust note was just obnoxious. It was fun for about 5 minutes and then just got old. 4 hours on the highway felt like punishment.

My first ride on a Zero motorcycle was a revelation. I didn't miss the noise or gear changes. Gliding along with nothing but wind noise made riding a bike feel even more like flying. The lack of gear changes was one less thing to distract from hitting the apex just right.

The lack of exhaust noise also makes it easier to drive at the limit. You hear the tires start to squeal much sooner than when it is drowned out by a loud exhaust.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Today there was a small car show near my neighborhood, with just a few cars on display and mostly Volkswagens, a '51 Chevrolet, a '48 Ford Deluxe coupé, a '62 Brazilian F-100 and a '28 Ford Model A Tudor, and 2 imports of the '90s which are still not officially considered "collectible" according to Brazilian law. Trust me, I have even seen some kinds of people who don't seem to be much interested about cars at all, taking a glance at the classics.

There is a huge difference between those that might walk by a car show and look at the cars and those that own the cars. Hagarty is interested in and writes content for owners of classic cars. Visit a classic car show in the USA and the vast majority of the owners will be from the boomer generation. A combination of the cars being from their youth and the fact that they cost tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. An average run-of-the-mill 1965 Mustang is $35,000 - $40,000 Who is going to pay that for an old car that is by any objective measure inferior to the modern version? Old people reliving their youth.

The last large classic car show I visited was one at Portland International Raceway back in 2018. I went with my dad when he was visiting. He even commented that the crowd was nothing but old people (he is 75).

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

To each their own. 30 years ago I loved loud bikes and cars (and have the tinnitus to prove it) Today, I find them annoying to be around a drive. My last trip to NC I had a Challenger as a rental and the exhaust note was just obnoxious. It was fun for about 5 minutes and then just got old. 4 hours on the highway felt like punishment.

My first ride on a Zero motorcycle was a revelation. I didn't miss the noise or gear changes. Gliding along with nothing but wind noise made riding a bike feel even more like flying. The lack of gear changes was one less thing to distract from hitting the apex just right.

The lack of exhaust noise also makes it easier to drive at the limit. You hear the tires start to squeal much sooner than when it is drowned out by a loud exhaust.

What you describe sounds exhilarating, but not soulful.

I too am annoyed by needlessly noisy vehicles. In my view, an ICE should be as quiet as possible when driven normally, and have a monsterous reply when pushed hard.

I don't think it's just nostalgia either. I can marvel at the engineering of an old steam engine even though I have not lived when they were in common use.

EVs seem like utilitarian instruments that you simply scrap when the battery wears out. Of course, most ICE vehicles are this way too, and lack soul because they were designed as utilitarian instruments.

A passing EV won't stir my soul like listening to an old Beetle take off. The auditory experience is so crucial to the character of a vehicle. Heck, if Harley's sounded like Hondas, they would no longer be made.