Another win for the idiots.

[P-hack]

the infrared thing was interesting. I had wondered about seeing "harmonics".

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

So you just wanted to rant?
To accomplish what?

You don't really back up your science claims.
In the end there only was a document about a completely different engine design with specific problems that under special conditions could benefit from hydrogen seeding.
Nothing indicates it would have that effect on a well running conventional engine.
You just combined a few things and drew conclusions, but to do it scientifically you have to describe all the steps you took and thoroughly try to disprove them yourself; if anything it would help as preparation for the scrutiny you'd get from your peers.

. . . {section deletion}.

Maybe your ideas have not met the same strictness of analysis, and while you wave the flag for science you do not meet its minimal requirements.

In fact, you don't need to; if you can prove it works it works, whether it matches theory or not.
We rather see the result and theorise on what causes it than just theorise.
But I suspect you will just send out more words.

You, like many others, assume all research is published on the web and accessible to all. It is not. And, I do not need to find specific studies to back my claims of a possible outcome for HHO as classic science provides me enough to extrapolate an outcome. In the post that went up just before yours, you can see I have done some basic testing. I am at the point I am expanding on the research and looking for correlation and theory modification.

Stringent scientific protocol for published research is beyond the scope of our efforts. And you are right, all we have to do is show an effect and see if it correlates with our postulation.

But, I still reserve the right to rant just bit - with your permission.

[user removed]

Why would I assume all research is available on the web rusty? Nuke sub workers are notoriously silent but they risk incarceration and possible treason charges unlike most of us. My nephews work is so top secret they had an armed Marine in the operating room when he had a colonoscopy.

I never presume lack of intelligence on the part of any other person. In fact I find innovation to be the realm of many who had very little formal education. Old man Honda is one example. I like to think I can learn something from just about anyone.

I like to help people in situations where my experience may proivide them with some benefit, and I particularly enjoy those who, even with educations and IQs above 160 to not measureable, who have that fantastic ability to explain something in such away as to make it understandable to even one with little formal training in the process being described.

It's fun to return the favor when it's possible.

regards
mech

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Why would I assume all research is available on the web rusty? Nuke sub workers are notoriously silent but they risk incarceration and possible treason charges unlike most of us. My nephews work is so top secret they had an armed Marine in the operating room when he had a colonoscopy.

I never presume lack of intelligence on the part of any other person. In fact I find innovation to be the realm of many who had very little formal education. Old man Honda is one example. I like to think I can learn something from just about anyone.

I like to help people in situations where my experience may proivide them with some benefit, and I particularly enjoy those who, even with educations and IQs above 160 to not measureable, who have that fantastic ability to explain something in such away as to make it understandable to even one with little formal training in the process being described.

It's fun to return the favor when it's possible.

regards
mech

And I am familiar with governmental security as I was excluded from numerous areas of research during the time I worked on nuclear accelerators for the Star Wars Initiative.

But, that is not what I am referring to. I was referring to those who wanted links, links and more links to studies that directly support my position. Government security is just one firewall to the flow of information. Corporate security is another. Another biggie is the dot edu repositories that are not accessible except with special permission. And then, there is research that is never published for some reason or another.

I wish all research was made accessible. It would make following research easier. Even the bad research provides data.

I have an in-law who was a professor of physics at a local university. He called me up to discuss HHO. This was surprising to me since he, prudently, doesn't believe HHO can work. He had several papers that were sent up from the Mechanical Engineering Department with a request from the Departmental Dean to review and comment on these lower division student lab reports. As it was, there seemed to be a fad among junior/senior level ME students to do their lab option by sticking an HHO device on their test engine. The reports ranged from "little happened" to "surprising". My in-laws assessment was "student errors and misunderstood anomalies". His take was that these undergrad class reports were not going to get published anyways so it mattered little. I wish I could get a hold of these reports. Gather enough data points and you can start to see patterns. That is why I do not like the fact that Ecomodders chase off all the HHO people. If we can educate them on the need for disciplined and documented work as well as make them feel comfortable enough to stay and report, we get data.

And I have made it simple to the point of error. I have simply stated my theory of how HHO could work as "it's ability to contract the combustion pressure curve". I have made this clear in other threads. The need to bring up thermochemistry and chemical kinetics was due to the derisive posts that claimed science does not support my position.

My son asked me once, " how does an airplane fly"? "It flies on the wind", was my answer. What am I supposed to say to a three year old?

"How does the wind make it fly"? "The wind pushes on the airplane the same way it pushes on you".

"How does the wind push on the airplane and me"?

At this point, I wished my son had the concepts of Bernoulli and Reynolds. I had to settle for " it is an invisible cloud that holds up the other clouds and an airplane flies on the invisible cloud".

There are limits to simplification.

-----

And Mr. Honda is an exceptional example of a brilliant mind coupled with discipline. So is Kelly Johnson. A brilliant mind accentuated and equipped by a formal education. And both had the key inherent trait of being creative. Yourself and others on this forum have that trait. It is what makes this place.

[P-hack]

Well hopefully you can understand that is a fairly useless post. Nobody expects anyone to prove much of anything about anothers HHO claims, you are taking this up of your own accord. But you are still in hho apologetics mode, not persuing actual data to verify your theory. And folks are rightly going to give it a %99 probability of just being more unverifiable BS, just based on experience. You understand that on some level.

[deejaaa]

i give up. my hands are washed. Obi Wan Kenobi.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by P-hack

Well hopefully you can understand that is a fairly useless post. Nobody expects anyone to prove much of anything about anothers HHO claims, you are taking this up of your own accord. But you are still in hho apologetics mode, not persuing actual data to verify your theory. And folks are rightly going to give it a %99 probability of just being more unverifiable BS, just based on experience. You understand that on some level.

I realize most people give this effort no chance of success. So be it. All I have asked is that, if you are not on topic with the discussion, then stay out of it. That is why I started this rant thread. Many people can't stay out of it or stay pertinent to the topic. Especially in the Corral.

And I argue to no end against the scammer claims but put forth the possibility that something is happening. And you put me as an HHO apologist?

I look back on the lab work we did years ago, in the post above, and I realized we had overlooked one basic problem in our setup. I have witnessed several dyno tests on HHO devices and the same error was made.

I am in the process of working around the need for a full dyno lab to gather data and correct the basic problem. And I will gather data, whether it is supportive or not, of my initial postulations.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by deejaaa

i give up. my hands are washed. Obi Wan Kenobi.

Remember, Pontius Pilate said the same thing and that guy was still filthy.

[P-hack]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Many people can't stay out of it or stay pertinent to the topic.

Well, given that HHO's leeway in general has long expired, isn't the only thing that is pertinant at this point is testing procedures and results? Not ongoing area 51 conspiracy level "I can't tell you, its a secret" type discussions?

[UFO]

I agree P-hack. Time to put up.