Another win for the idiots.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by niky

Nobody here has ever debated that hydrogen injection can work.

The only question has ever been "Can you supply enough from an onboard bubbler to make an actual difference."

Not holding my breath, either.

It's very easy to show economy results. Hell... propane enrichment and water/alcohol injection (for diesels, nothing doing on gasoline cars) proponents show them all the time in the form of instrumented testing results.

But then, they're not trying to generate their own fuel on the fly...

Your last sentence shows you have missed the whole point of the exercise. At no time have I ever said we are producing a fuel stream.

Have you built a water injection system from the ground up? Have you done the same for a propane/natural gas injection into a diesel? Have you done any research work in dyno cells? You write about it, but have you ever done it?

Do you know how to use an electrolysis device to capture some of the waste heat of combustion and reduce the generator losses?

Do you understand the principles behind the chemical kinetics that govern combustion in my discussion outlined above?

Have you ever designed and built instrumentation to measure in cylinder pressure curves? Have you designed and built fuel flow meters that can measure accurately down to less than a cc/min? Have you designed a wireless strain gauge integrated into the drive-shaft of a vehicle to measure road going loads?

Believe me, when I say there will be instrumented data to peruse. I understand the Sagan Test. And I understand that instrumented data will not be enough to even convince the most dogged opponent.

Edit.
I have to add that the instrument work I participated in 20 years ago, is now found in off the shelf applications. Road going dyno systems can be purchased for a few thousand dollars.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

...snip...
Have you built a water injection system from the ground up? Have you done the same for a propane/natural gas injection into a diesel? Have you done any research work in dyno cells? You write about it, but have you ever done it?
...snip...

Yes, some of us have -- 10 years Tank/Automotive testing at USArmy Yuma Proving Ground; road testing water and water/alcohol injection in ICE and diesel engines, using road dynamometers (tanks don't care too much about aerodynamics).

And, astute members do NOT have to re-invent the errors of others to see that while something MAY be physically possible it is presently NOT practically possible.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

Yes, some of us have -- 10 years Tank/Automotive testing at USArmy Yuma Proving Ground; road testing water and water/alcohol injection in ICE and diesel engines, using road dynamometers (tanks don't care too much about aerodynamics).

And, astute members do NOT have to re-invent the errors of others to see that while something MAY be physically possible it is presently NOT practically possible.

But, have you done any research into the chemical thermodynamics of combustion species? Can an exceedingly small amount of HHO, under the right conditions result in a domino effect of radical production that the resulting combustion profile follows that of the classically understood 4% and greater hydrogen assisted combustion?

That is the salient question. An astute member would have recognized this.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

And, astute members do NOT have to re-invent the errors of others to see that while something MAY be physically possible it is presently NOT practically possible.

Quite apart from all this, there's a simple practical question: if something looks like a scam, sounds like a scam, and is sold like a scam, why shouldn't a sensible person assume that it IS a scam? (Like those "One weird trick..." ads that pop up on web sites.) And conversely, if people don't want their new invention to be taken for a scam, why do they go to such lengths to a) make it seem like a scam; and b) put their effort into selling it to the market most likely to fall for scams?

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Quite apart from all this, there's a simple practical question: if something looks like a scam, sounds like a scam, and is sold like a scam, why shouldn't a sensible person assume that it IS a scam? (Like those "One weird trick..." ads that pop up on web sites.) And conversely, if people don't want their new invention to be taken for a scam, why do they go to such lengths to a) make it seem like a scam; and b) put their effort into selling it to the market most likely to fall for scams?

You will have to ask the scammers. Birk1 wasn't scamming. Hypermiler wasn't either. I certainly am not.

Then there is the other question. "Could there be any trace of truth to their claims"?

Why don't we try to find out. Let us be truthful. No one on here has even tried and stayed to report. Why don't we take a closer look?

How about you James? What do you think? Can a small amount of HHO mixed into the combustion chamber under the right conditions cause a domino effect to produce a change in the combustion profile? I have given my postulations. But short of a test engine with a boro-silicate view port and laser interferometry analysis as well as a complete exhaust gas analysis, I really won't know. Be that as it may, we can test pressure, temperature and fuel use quite easily.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Incorrect assertion. Interjection of intent that was never there.

Considering your total lack of understanding of various subjects, it is amazing how often you pop up and make off the cuff comments that are not even part of the discussion.

I am asserting that commentary such as you provide, keep honest inquiries into the subject matter from going very far. Got that? Do you want to continue the argument? Your continued argument proves my point.

People such as you can spew all they want on the internet because there is no recourse or penalty. Your continued secretions of the mind prove my point. You cannot talk about the subject matter at hand so you dump. Bravo.

You are invited to prove me wrong on something.

P.S. I've changed my mind. I don't care what Mr. Nuts thinks about me or my commentary- that is for each individual to decide. Suffice to say, he hasn't convinced me of any error of my ways.

Originally Posted by blatheringidiot

All I am asking is that we be allowed to explore HHO. Is that too much to ask? Obviously to the overt reactionaries it seems that it is.

Exploring unicorns pretty much killed the entire Gassavers site. The place turned into a joke.

[RustyLugNut]

Well, I'm off to the airport to pick up my beautiful wife.

A blessed Thanksgiving to all, even if you live in a part of the world that doesn't observe the holiday. It is a good thing to be thankful for what we have and cherish.

And I am thankful for this forum and it's members, even if we butt heads, it is because we care about something enough to be passionate about it.

[oil pan 4]

You are invited to build the millionth or so HHO bubbler that has a negative net effect on over all fuel economy.

[niky]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Your last sentence shows you have missed the whole point of the exercise.

Like I've said... nobody debates that enrichment possibly works. The problem is you're trying to generate your fuel... or octane booster... or enrichment radicals... or whatever... on the fly.

ALL that we would like to see here is proof that this can be done without an overall net loss of energy.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

You will have to ask the scammers. Birk1 wasn't scamming. Hypermiler wasn't either. I certainly am not.

Then there is the other question. "Could there be any trace of truth to their claims"?

Why don't we try to find out. Let us be truthful. No one on here has even tried and stayed to report. Why don't we take a closer look?

How about you James? What do you think? Can a small amount of HHO mixed into the combustion chamber under the right conditions cause a domino effect to produce a change in the combustion profile? I have given my postulations. But short of a test engine with a boro-silicate view port and laser interferometry analysis as well as a complete exhaust gas analysis, I really won't know. Be that as it may, we can test pressure, temperature and fuel use quite easily.

An engine on a dyno could be configured to have various fuels introduced while monitoring the power output. With known quantities of HHO, or hydrogen, methane, or any other fuel chosen then would not the power output reflect Rusty's belief that combustion was enhanced by the introduction of additional hydrogen.

You mentioned 4%. By volume, weight, or energy content? Even if we assume that your postion is correct, Rusty, which is the simplest way to get past the "idiots" (post title) or the 60% savings (claimed by birk) or any other individual whose objective is to USE the credibility of the forum to SELL something which evidence does not support their claims, then you could calculate the energy cost of production of the additional fuel.

Separation of the supply system by using tanks of the material in question from the production using the vehicles charging system would allow precision measurements of output.

HCCI claims an ideal 25% increase inefficiency. I think that is a theoretical maximum, but one of great significance, if it can be achieved under real world conditions and I definitely believe it can be achieved.

Lean burn is as close as we have come to this point, but sadly those who control the regulatory environment made NOX the killer of lean burn. In my opinion The issue is non homogenous mixture, which means you have to get the fuel into the cylinder with better atomization. Preheating the fuel ("free" energy othewise wasted) and injecting it at much higher pressures seems to be the logical pathway at this time.

Even if you succeed in a laboratory, it may never see mass production and distribution unless the system is virtually idiot proof. With product liability attorneys and govt regulators just waiting to pounce and your corporations financial life on the line in every class action suit, most rational people would understand the reluctance to innovate at anything more than a snails pace.

regards
mech