Arcimoto, the real thing? ($12k tandem EV trike, 70/130 mi. range)

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

In either case a computer can and does modulate faster than a human.

Also rear power slides are pretty easy to save. Locking the front wheel isn’t so easy to save Lock the front wheel while leaned over and it is all over for mortals.

Rear slides are way more common because that's the only wheel with power. Often they are recoverable, but occasionally they recover catastrophically (high-side). Losing the front is hardly ever a problem because braking is done prior to turn apex, and the speed is locked in at that point. You're either within the performance envelope and not crashing, or no amount of ABS can salvage the turn.

In a straight line, I can't lock my front wheel without going over the handlebars unless I'm on a very large banana peel. In a corner, I shouldn't be touching the front brake.

Rear brakes are nearly useless and not so catastrophic to lock up.

I simply have very little use for ABS on a motorcycle. It may help in certain situations, but traction control is more valuable in my opinion, and easier to implement since all of the requisite elements are already in place (throttle by wire and wheel speed sensing).

[freebeard]

I found a 17mm socket and breakover bar, but it will need a deep socket.

[redpoint5]

Bring 'er over. Extra space in the garage, and I've finally mostly organized the tools.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Rear slides are way more common because that's the only wheel with power. Often they are recoverable, but occasionally they recover catastrophically (high-side). Losing the front is hardly ever a problem because braking is done prior to turn apex, and the speed is locked in at that point. You're either within the performance envelope and not crashing, or no amount of ABS can salvage the turn.

Yes, high-sides aren't fun - I've totaled a bike that way.

Braking should be done on corner entry prior to the apex and it normally is. However, sometime people misjudge the corner and what was a continuous radius turn turns into a decreasing radius turn and a bit more braking is needed. It is nice to have some computerized help to get the mix of braking and corner grip right.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

In a straight line, I can't lock my front wheel without going over the handlebars unless I'm on a very large banana peel. In a corner, I shouldn't be touching the front brake.

All well and good when the pavement is clean and dry. In the real world with rain, oil slicks, puddles, gravel, mud, manhole covers, painted lines, etc - grip can vary quite a bit. I know from personal experience it is very possible to lock a wheel on a small patch of gravel and be on the ground in a blink of the eye - even braking in a straight line.

Yes, on a sportbike like yours you would likely be over the handlebars before locking the wheel in a straight line on clean dry pavement. My ZX-7RR would lift the rear wheel under hard braking. Other styles of bikes will lock a wheel well before doing a stoppie.

ABS is also a great training tool. It give riders the confidence to practice braking harder and harder and actually see what their bike can do without the fear of locking the wheels and crashing.

[redpoint5]

I used to haul stuff in grocery bags on my motorcycle by looping the handles over the helmet holder. The stuff would just hang off the side of the bike. One day I bought oil and a filter for the bike and was hauling it home as I usually do. From a stop, I took a left turn and the bike spun 180 degrees and spat me out on the street. The grocery bag had hung near the rear wheel, which rubbed a small slit in the oil container and coated the left edge of the tire. Wish I had traction control then, and the other few times where I did dumb things involving too much throttle for the available traction.

I'd take ABS on a touring bike or anything likely to slide before allowing a stoppie. I'd take a slipper clutch over ABS on my sport bike.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'd take ABS on a touring bike or anything likely to slide before allowing a stoppie. I'd take a slipper clutch over ABS on my sport bike.

I'd take all of the above. My BMW only has ABS but I've rented bikes with the full monty and they are something else.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

One thing that is dumb is the tire pressure monitoring system requirements.

IIRC it started after those problems with Firestone tires in the Ford Explorer.

[Snax]

I think it makes sense to parse out the 3-wheeler here however. A lockup on the front is not going to be catastrophic, and they are similar to a 4-wheeler with respect to rear lockup.

Getting back to what I said earlier, there is an issue of what ABS can do and what it really does in practice due to cost cutting measures. I.e., the ABS on my i3 is just ****ing awful. Straight line braking, it works great, but in a corner it is deplorable.

There are 3 and 4 channel ABS systems that don't have that behavior, but BMW used a 2-channel split, which is a hamstrung half-measure.

That said, ABS on the FUV could just as easily be the same configuration as a bike and be moderately decent performing. Though there would still be an issue of the inside wheel lift that would cycle the pump and simultaneously cut the braking on the outside front. So in my mind, if it is not 3-channel, I don't want it. It doesn't help me and would just add cost, weight, and complexity for virtually no gain.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Snax

I think it makes sense to parse out the 3-wheeler here however. A lockup on the front is not going to be catastrophic, and they are similar to a 4-wheeler with respect to rear lockup.

Getting back to what I said earlier, there is an issue of what ABS can do and what it really does in practice due to cost cutting measures. I.e., the ABS on my i3 is just ****ing awful. Straight line braking, it works great, but in a corner it is deplorable.

There are 3 and 4 channel ABS systems that don't have that behavior, but BMW used a 2-channel split, which is a hamstrung half-measure.

That said, ABS on the FUV could just as easily be the same configuration as a bike and be moderately decent performing. Though there would still be an issue of the inside wheel lift that would cycle the pump and simultaneously cut the braking on the outside front. So in my mind, if it is not 3-channel, I don't want it. It doesn't help me and would just add cost, weight, and complexity for virtually no gain.

How does BMW meet the federal mandate for stability control that brakes individual wheels with only 2 channel ABS? Can they split regen side to side?

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by -Snax

That said, ABS on the FUV could just as easily be the same configuration as a bike and be moderately decent performing.

Talking about Arcimoto in an Arcimoto thread? Their plans are for full autonomy.

Torque vectoring is in the roadmap but hasn't been implemented as of yet.