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Old 04-03-2018, 06:40 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Raising meat and dairy are excellent options for marginal land, with one caveat;
Herd animals prevent desertification:


Add sound to clay and it's magic:

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Old 04-03-2018, 08:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Xist View Post
This article argues that purchasing locally-raised meat is better for the environment than purchasing vegetables from around the world...
Often the cheapest things are best for the environment. Ever notice how local produce is more expensive than the big box grocery stores? It takes way more fossil fuels to drive pickup trucks of food around and sell small quantities than to move a container ship full of food across the oceans and sell large quantities in grocery stores.

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You don't have to be a vegan to distrust Monsanto.
Why distrust Monsanto more than any other business? GMO is what humans do, and have done since the beginning of agriculture. Even the extremist Bill Nye changed his mind about GMO. That isn't to say that all GMO is good, or that there are never negative consequences, but no need to wear a tinfoil hat while eating GMO corn, either.

I'm reserving my praise for Monsanto for when they engineer the prime rib tree. Mmmm, fresh picked prime rib.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm reserving my praise for Monsanto for when they engineer the prime rib tree. Mmmm, fresh picked prime rib.
Would that be vegan?

Don't go off about the third suggestion of thermodynamics, but I want them to engineer a plant that flourishes in Arizona, and turns heat into Skittles.

Skittles grow on trees, right?

I can imagine vegetarians asking to be buried in a paper bag without the customary preservatives. How do vegans want to be buried?
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:02 AM   #24 (permalink)
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So, if test-tube cloned pork can be kosher, should vegans accept test-tube meat?

https://www.jta.org/2018/03/22/news-...including-milk
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:10 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Would that be vegan?
Yes

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So, if test-tube cloned pork can be kosher, should vegans accept test-tube meat?
Yes

Vegan diets are about minimizing cruelty and exploitation of sentient creatures. Since meat isn't sentient (lacks central nervous system), it meets the requirements of veganism.

My take on the subject is that most livestock probably live relatively stress-free under the care of humans up until their relatively quick and painless end. The wilderness doesn't offer the same lack of predators, disease and bounty of food, and usually involves a slow and suffering end. To imagine that they experience horror and exploitation anywhere near to what humans do is to anthropomorphize them.

This isn't to say that I condone unnecessary pain or other cruelty towards animals, but they simply don't fear the future in the way humans do. They don't wrestle with existentialism as we do, and perhaps that is why we are so bothered by seeing the death of an animal, as it forcefully reminds us of our own mortality.

Hmm, I feel a Jordan Peterson lecture coming on right about now, and a story of 2 brothers.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:58 AM   #26 (permalink)
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You mentioned JPB's critics in some thread. Are there any that are worth investigating?

Also:
Herd Immunity


Vegans gone bad:
https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/0...demonetization
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:41 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You mentioned JPB's critics in some thread. Are there any that are worth investigating?

I heard David Bentley Hart say that JP was a "hack and a 2nd rate mind". That got me to thinking that I need to read the criticisms of JP, but haven't found much yet. Hoping to find a debate where someone challenges his ideas. Cathy Newman doesn't count.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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"veganism is a failed attempt to solve a quantum problem with forced Newtonian `solution.'” https://erikaawakening.com/my-break-...nism-ex-vegan/

Someone wrote a blog post about how being vegan nearly killed them. It was endless nonsense pushing the agenda and then finally saying they went shopping for vegan food and someone nearly ran them over.
I am going to find them and feed them to adorable bunnies.

This one talked about all of the health problems she developed as a vegan and how certain things are cofactors for vitamins and minerals, like how your body cannot use Vitamin D without sunlight.

Quote:
"The late Mahatma Gandhi devoted much of his life to the advocacy of strict vegetarian diet, and for years he experimented on his own body to find a suitable selection of plant foods on which to sustain health.

But all attempts were failures. In 1929, Gandhi and 22 companions went on a diet consisting of a limited selection of uncooked plant foods. Whereas the diet worked out well for a time and led to marked improvement in consumptive cases, it failed to prove adequate on a long-range sustenance basis. One by one Gandhi's companions were forced to depart from the diet, and Gandhi himself had to add goat milk to his fare in order to regain health.

"For my companions I have been a blind guide leading the blind," declared Gandhi after the experiment was over. Gandhi still felt, however, that "the hidden possibilities of the innumerable seeds, leaves and fruits" of the earth could be explored and found to provide mankind with adequate nourishment. He never stopped trying to experiment along these lines, but he always had to turn back to goat milk to regain his strength.

In the end he had to acknowledge the necessity for animal food. In 1946 he declared: "The crores of India today get neither milk nor ghee nor butter, nor even buttermilk. No wonder that mortality figures are on the increase and there is a lack of energy in the people. It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud is an enemy of India."
"The Unbearable Lightness Of Being Unbearable" by by Kelli Jae Baeli, 2010

So, people who claim to be healthy vegans also claim to be better than Ghandi.

[nothing relevant could have developed in 72 years]

Not killing animals for food makes sense to me. Not sucking petroleum out of the earth and then burning it also seems logical, but nobody likes people who say they are better than others.

Be like me! Don't tell anyone you are better than them, let that be your secret! :P
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Someone recently mentioned Nasim Aghdam, but I cannot find the post now. Was it taken down? According to this article she was an "Extremist vegan." https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-about-n862586

I think that muddies the statistics.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Cra-cra. Lionel is vegan. Here's what he had to say:



Third female shooter. No gun control, ten[?] shots, no kills. Herself excepted. At least she didn't fail there, like the guy on the airplane that blew up his underpants.

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