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Old 08-28-2009, 09:54 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I really don't see how anyone could whine so much about people being opposed to robocop tickets. Did you buy stock in traffic cameras? WTF is the problem?

You WANT citizens to argue with machines?!? My country is ABOUT the people.

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Old 08-28-2009, 10:16 AM   #62 (permalink)
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It's getting slippery. Please keep it civil folks.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:20 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Good point, auto ticket if you can't stop for the 1/2 second yellow because it is slippery out
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:52 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MazdaMatt View Post
Frank, do you fly a Rebel Flag on a pickup truck or something? You compare drunk checks to nazis? Around here it is called the R.I.D.E. program (Reduced Impaired Driving Everywhere), and people are all for it. If you're not drunk, you have no issue - period. I'd MUCH rather be stopped by ride on xmas eve and st. Patty's day and say "no officer, i'm not drinking, you have a good night, bye" then get smashed up by some drunk.

You're against seat belts, helmets and taxation of liquor and smokes to help fund anti-drunk driving campaigns and anti-smoking compagns? Frank, what kind of country do you have in mind? Everybody roaring aorund without helmets on motorcycles drunk coughing up black crap from their cancerous lungs? Oh, was that extreme? I guess we'll just settle for microchips. Again... stop being rediculous... its a red light camera. Don't run the light.
You are seriously afraid enough of getting tangled up with a drunk to forfeit civil liberties??? Wow.

I have a name for that but it's already getting "slippery" in here.

As far as my being "rediculous"... I don't know how long you've been around, but I've been around a block or two and I can remember being alive before mandatory seat belts, mandatory helmets, high liquor taxation, high smokes taxation, blanket sobriety checkpoints, and a whole wagon load of other nanny-state B.S. It is obvious that the America- the one with the proud and free individualists- they bragged up in the propaganda the schools shoved down our throats doesn't exist any more.

"Don't run the light"- I can see I'm wasting my time on you if none of the previous posts sunk in at all. Still, I found this quick read:

Quote:
DWI/DUI Sobriety Road Blocks or Checkpoints
by David J. Hanson, Ph.D.

The Bill of Rights refers to the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution, the fourth of which states that:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Thus the Constitution protects people from being stopped without a search warrant or at least “probable cause” that they have committed a crime.

The Michigan Supreme Court found sobriety checkpoints to be a violation of the Fourth Amendment. However, in a split decision, the U.S. Supreme Court reversed the Michigan court. Although acknowledging that such roadblocks violate a fundamental constitutional right, Chief Justice Rehnquist argued that they are necessary in order to reduce drunk driving. That is, he argued that the end justifies the means. Attorney and law professor Lawrence Taylor refers to this as “the DUI exception to the Constitution.” 1

Dissenting justices emphasized that the Constitution doesn’t provide exceptions. "That stopping every car might make it easier to prevent drunken driving ... is an insufficient justification for abandoning the requirement of individualized suspicion," dissenting Justice Brennan insisted. 2

Chief Justice Rehnquist had argued that violating individual constitutional rights was justified because sobriety roadblocks were effective and necessary. But dissenting Justice Stevens pointed out that "the findings of the trial court, based on an extensive record and affirmed by the Michigan Court of Appeals, indicate that the net effect of sobriety checkpoints on traffic safety is infinitesimal and possibly negative." 3 And even if roadblocks were effective, the fact that they work wouldn’t justify violating individuals’ constitutional rights, justices argued.

While the U.S. Supreme Court has made the DUI exemption to the Constitution, eleven states have found that sobriety checkpoints violate their own state constitutions or have outlawed them. In these states, individuals have more protections against unreasonable search and police sobriety roadblocks are prohibited.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), which strongly promotes them, implies that sobriety roadblocks are legal throughout the entire United States without exception. It says that “the U.S. Supreme Court on June 14, 1990 upheld the use of sobriety checkpoints to detect and deter impaired drivers. Previous appeals to the Supreme Court to review the constitutionality of such checkpoints had been declined, which allowed high state court rulings to stand. The June 14, 1990 ruling clearly upheld the constitutionality of such enforcement measures.” 4

MADD also dismisses those who question the use of sobriety checkpoints by asserting that “opponents of sobriety checkpoints tend to be those who drink and drive frequently and are concerned about being caught.” 5 MADD provides no evidence of this assertion and none has been found in any published research study. There are, however, published reports that opposition is especially strong among civil libertarians, judges, law enforcement leaders and conservatives. 6

There are many arguments both for and against the use of roadblocks in our effort to reduce drunk driving. For example, many law enforcement officials and researchers believe that roving patrols are much more effective and are a better use of scarce resources. People of good will can and do disagree on such important matters.

Unfortunately, MADD’s effort to discredit and marginalize those with whom it disagrees is unproductive and doesn‘t help us make the best decisions about how to reduce impaired and drunk driving, whether or not that involves police roadblocks.
Yeah, the Constitution is only a damned piece of paper, but I think it was a good one.

BTW, Fargo has had 42 checkpoints since '04 and, if my interpolated number on the number of vehicles stopped is anywhere near accurate, .9% of the stops resulted in arrests. Wildly successful and totally worth it eh?

Oh look:
Quote:
FARGO -- Four people were arrested for drunken driving during a sobriety checkpoint here Tuesday night in the 700 block of North University Drive.

One driver arrested for DUI also was arrested for possession of marijuana with intent to deliver and minor in possession or consumption of alcohol, Sgt. Mike Bernier said.

Another driver arrested for DUI was also arrested for possession of marijuana paraphernalia, and a passenger of one vehicle that entered the checkpoint was arrested for minor in possession or consumption.
The data the .9% statistic came from doesn't even distinguish if it's the DRIVER that may have been the offender.

In addition, every driver’s papers ARE checked. If they don’t have their license or their insurance or if something is wrong with their car (tail light, etc.) they get a ticket.

The checkpoint acts well outside the scope of a DWI checkpoint. It really does equate to a stop without probable cause. I do not understand how the courts have upheld the legality of them.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:55 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taredog View Post
Go to the fed? Handed back down equally? The "fed" is not corrupt? What fantasyland are you living in?

Oh never mind, I see it's California. Yeah, your model is something we should all aim for.
Obviously you need to read a little more slowly. The LOCAL government gets the lion's share of the money, so they have an INCENTIVE to install and run ILLEGAL cameras. If they bore the cost of the cameras and didn't get the windfall DIRECTLY, you'd see a lot fewer cameras. Look up New Rome, Ohio in Wikipedia some time if you want to see the results of giving citation money directly to they people who write the citations.

Nice ad hominem though.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:58 PM   #66 (permalink)
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OK, good points by all so far, BUT...

Although I'm part of this discussion, I have to ask that we keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

We all know that it's better to argue in front of a crowd of people, but take it to PM before this gets out of hand.

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Old 08-28-2009, 01:04 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taredog View Post
You do not get flashed here for right on red IF YOU ACTUALLY STOP before entering the intersection. A lot of people treat right on red like a yield sign. I had to evade one just tonight as she sailed right through, in to the left lane and back in to the right and was not accelerating at all. Totally oblivious to all other traffic. So if you STOP at the line, then proceed I doubt you will get flashed. Of course this will mess up your FE.
I wonder how many other times she "sailed right through", endangering people, in the 15 days before she actually got a ticket. If there had been a cop there, she would have been stopped right away, but instead, she probably endangered more people (and racked up even more fines.)

In San Bernardino, EVERYBODY turning right gets flashed. Then you get to spend 15 days wondering whether the guy reviewing the video can figure out a way to give you a ticket. And if he does, the local kangaroo court doesn't let you defend yourself, and you're $420 in the hole.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:08 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
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You are seriously afraid enough of getting tangled up with a drunk to forfeit civil liberties??? Wow.
The problem is that it's not just a drunk checkpoint. We had one of those in my small unincorporated town a couple of months ago, and it was a full-on, shine-the-light-all-over-the-inside-of-the-car, where-are-you-headed, let-me-see-your-papers civil rights violation. If you want to stop drunk driving, park outside the bar and snag the drunks who can't find the keyhole with both hands. Don't make me wait 5 minutes in line so you can examine every light bulb on my car and find a way to write me another revenue collection slip.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:29 PM   #69 (permalink)
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The problem with civil liberties is that they are often interpreted in a way that places an individual over the society he lives in. It is my opinion that individual civil liberties should not be limited, insofar as the actions resulting from those liberties are not detrimental to the well being of the society as a whole.

I'm still curious how speed or red lights cameras hinder civil liberties.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:37 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tasdrouille View Post
The problem with civil liberties is that they are often interpreted in a way that places an individual over the society he lives in. It is my opinion that individual civil liberties should not be limited, insofar as the actions resulting from those liberties are not detrimental to the well being of the society as a whole.

I'm still curious how speed or red lights cameras hinder civil liberties.
They ticket people who do not break the law and do not allow the accused to question their accuser in violation of due process. How is that NOT a violation of civil liberties?

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