Cameras are a success in Quebec (for speeding & red lights)

[RH77]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

I'm still curious how speed or red lights cameras hinder civil liberties.

First, they can violate personal privacy. Many jurisdictions must have the photo of the driver in case someone borrows your car, etc. This could be interpreted as entrapment. It's a complicated argument that can be best made by someone more familiar with the spirit of our laws.

The best I can describe it, is the "society" taking advantage of the individual. Many small towns, all the way up to the Federal Government, has become corrupt in many aspects, and abuse of these cameras is one fundamental example.

This is why many States have banned their usage.

I think it may come down to the differences of interpretation of freedom and liberties between U.S. and Canadian citizens. For me, it comes down to, "I agree with their use, but Constitutionally speaking, I have to sacrifice that preference for what is intended for the Nation by the Framers". It may be perfectly acceptable in your culture.

I watch CBC's "National" news from time-to-time, to get another perspective. From what I can tell from the news, as a frequent visitor to Canada, and just by speaking with those that live there, I would not have a problem with the cameras under your jurisdiction as a visitor or resident. There are many facets of more responsible governing and a different view of the spirit of Canadian Confederation.

RH77

[Frank Lee]

Benjamin Franklin (1706–90)
QUOTATION: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Looks like that hard fought-for freedom is lost on the current generation.

Oh well, you get the gummint you deserve.

They'll never even know what they missed. :/

[Kiwi_ME]

San Diego, CA installed about 20 red light cameras two decades ago, mostly on left-turns equipped with a separate arrow light that were seen as having a high number of incidents. There was even a slight grace period after the red, about one or two tenths of a second, according to my friend who was a technician with the camera company.

Although the yellow period is set by speed limit per CHP standards, what was not taken into consideration was the design of the intersection. Two intersections in particular were racking up absurd numbers of tickets, thousands a month, netting the city about $200 each (and the camera company $100.) Eventually, experimentally on one the yellow was lengthened slightly and the ticket issuance immediately dropped to about 1/3! They had no choice but to leave it on the longer yellow once the difference had been documented.

On the second one, one day I watched it for about 30 minutes, clearly saw why drivers were not seeing the yellow come on, sent the city an email, and they fixed it six weeks later.

So, it's all very well saying these cameras are good "in theory," but in practice there is no guarantee that they are not simply taking advantage of the public's difficulty in navigating poorly-designed intersections. Neither the city nor the camera company have any interest in reducing their income unless there is a threat of legal action.

[Kiwi_ME]

Oh, and New Zealand has speed cameras littered throughout the country. Many are fixed but most are in vans placed in strategic locations each day.

Are these effective? Well, they issue a lot of tickets, perhaps every driver in the country gets one every few years. They certainly are an incentive not to speed but I would guess the vast majority are for inadvertently creeping over the allowable 109 kph (68 mph) due to watching the road rather than constantly monitoring the speedo.

[Clev]

Studies have shown that lengthening the yellow reduced red light running more than cameras, and having a one-second "all red" between signal changes reduces accidents more than cameras. Problem is that neither make money for the city.

[tasdrouille]

Am I wrong in thinking that the problem with the cameras in the US is that it's all about first degree revenues from the cameras? That's the real problem. If the people behind the cameras were actually caring about peoples' safety, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints, right?

[dcb]

Yup, but if people cared in general we wouldn't really need cameras, we could use this thing called judgement, or don'tMakeThatOtherGuyWithTheRightOfWayStompOnHisBr akes

[taredog]

Originally Posted by Clev

[snip] Okay, but it must go to the fed and then be handed back down to everyone equally.

[snip] The LOCAL government gets the lion's share of the money, so they have an INCENTIVE to install and run ILLEGAL cameras. If they bore the cost of the cameras and didn't get the windfall DIRECTLY, you'd see a lot fewer cameras. Look up New Rome, Ohio in Wikipedia some time if you want to see the results of giving citation money directly to they people who write the citations.

Nice ad hominem though.

My point here is that very little money that is turned over to the Government of the US is ever handed back down to everyone equally.

I've heard of New Rome. Sounds like Jobstown NJ where if you get stopped for speeding a "backup cop" will show up to high five the officer writing the ticket and declare "you da man".

[taredog]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

Am I wrong in thinking that the problem with the cameras in the US is that it's all about first degree revenues from the cameras? That's the real problem. If the people behind the cameras were actually caring about peoples' safety, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints, right?

Right on Tas. There is a degree of safety involved with the speed cameras AND the red light cameras but the manipulation of stop light timing does smell of cash cows.

Originally Posted by dcb

Yup, but if people cared in general we wouldn't really need cameras, we could use this thing called judgement, or don'tMakeThatOtherGuyWithTheRightOfWayStompOnHisBr akes

That is the bottom line dcb.

I am not against cameras. They sure have tamed traffic on I-10. What I hate about it is people's over reaction to the signs and slowing down to 10-20 mph below posted speed. Shows to me that they don't know what the posted limit is. The red light cameras have made everyone "gun shy" about the intersections so we ALL slow down approaching them. Not good for the smooth flow of traffic or FE.

Nothing personal meant toward anyone in previous postings

[RH77]

Originally Posted by taredog

I've heard of New Rome. Sounds like Jobstown NJ where if you get stopped for speeding a "backup cop" will show up to high five the officer writing the ticket and declare "you da man".

This is a bit off-topic, but maybe entertaining...

On Easter Sunday this year, I got my first ticket since I started Eco-Driving 4-years ago (before that, I built speeding into my "Hobby Budget"). Yes, shame on me -- but keep reading...

I had been visiting my family in Canton, Ohio before heading to a hotel in Columbus for work the next day (time: approximately 10 pm). This is about a 2.5 to 3 hour trip, mostly on I-71 (which became a 3-lane parking lot for some unknown reason). The GPS estimated a 30-minute earlier arrival using back-roads, so I exited the highway into the rolling hills of rural Ohio...

I entered and exited small towns, carefully gliding down to 25 mph from 50-55 and back up to speed. I entered the Village of Sunbury, with a nice little square and historic courthouse sandwiched between the Interstate and wilderness. That quaint feeling would soon turn to TERROR!

I zoom-zoomed the Mazda 6 up to 25 mph. Exiting town, there was a hill before the posted 40. With a grave error on my part not to brake harder, I hit 40 mph slightly before the sign and "Leaving Village Limits". Busted! 40 in a 25, in a lower gear and braking (so I was actually in DFCO -- so, speeding efficiently, if you will)

I was respectful as always (pulled over before the lights came on, hands on the wheel where he could see them, windows down, keys on the door sill, parking lights on, polite) but I still got the 3rd degree. Where are you coming from... where are you going... whose car is this... your eyes are bloodshot - have you been drinking... you know it's 25 here, I just can't let you go on 40 -- that's too much; to which I replied, "Canton, a hotel in Columbus for work tomorrow, it's a rental, no I'm just tired, I coasted down the hill to be ready for the 40-zone..." No dice.

He takes my Missouri license and proceeds to his cruiser. Then his supervisor shows up. I'm in this town with 2 cop cars, people driving by looking at me like a felon. 20-30 MINUTES later, he comes back, "I didn't know how to run the out-of-state license, so my boss helped". Sigh. Since it was my first ticket (in Ohio ever) and for over 3 years, I didn't have to return to court, but then I got the a stern lecture about how MO and OH have a reciprocal agreement and if I don't pay (the $145!) I would have a warrant for my arrest, blah-blah. The transaction concluded, so 3 seconds later, I entered the 40 zone and got the heck out of there.

I got to the Hotel and was really upset with myself that I had broken the Hypermilers' Code -- it was the principle that got me the most. I was indeed speeding, but it reminded me of something...

When I was 16 in Ohio, I very rarely sped or even rolled through a stop sign. They kept you scared. After a move to Kansas, a ticket wasn't a moving violation until 10-over (with no points) and people still flew past, so that mindset prevailed until the Eco-Driving days began.

So then 4+ years and about 150,000 miles later, I drove ticket-free (pull-over free). Moral of the story:

Don't speed in the Village of Sunbury, Ohio.

But related to the thread: increased actual enforcement forces compliance.

RH77