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Old 08-13-2014, 11:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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gregsfc, It is easy enough to disagree with what others are doing when it doesn't suit your situation. State you preferred position without running down others and you will get more support. I understand the reason why some older riders prefer the riding position they do. I will be changing my bicycle frame because at 60 yrs. I am having a hard time throwing a leg over my seat. I am pleased to see you do well with the low revving Honda as it proves a point. The fuel mileage is based not on displacement alone rather the keys are the mass rate of flow and compression ratio. Whether small displacement and high rpm or large displacement and low rpm we want to look at how much Air/Fuel mixture is used to produce a given amount or power. A diesel engine usually operates at twice the compression ratio of a gas engine. The effect of weight on both fuel economy and safety has been overstated lately by some folks. What is very clear is that a 250cc gas cycle is very affordable. Both the aero tuck and the FF positions offer similar gains in reducing frontal area. The four bag rules are somewhat arbitrary but I would argue that some cargo capacity is useful. I would further suggest that being able to easily change configurations to add a passenger or additional carrying capacity is an important feature. My take on body styles is that there are subtle relationships between the center of mass and the center of pressure vertically as well as horizontally to be explored. The concept of aero steer or yaw inputs are just now getting the attention needed to sort out optimum handling. I believe the center of mass should be just below the center of pressure but at this point it is only an educated guess that needs to be tested.
I can defend what the Vetterites have done without getting into a cult of personalities. I may never own a motorcycle but I appreciate each step forward and will apply the lessons learned to my own needs.

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Old 08-14-2014, 06:35 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Also important to me is the idea of a comfortable ride, but I differ with some in that I consider riding straight backed with my feet in front of me the least comfortable option. I like my feet under me, low handlebars and a cushion under my chest to lean forward on, again leading me to a sportier bike.
Wow Ben! This is quite an about face from your Yamaha. After all the work you put into that fairing I am surprised to see you take on another big project so soon.
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To begin with you can start out with a tank bag such as the Dowco that I use to lay your chest down on. Eventually I would like to build a fiberglass hard case for the tank so I don't have to rely on stuffing the bag full in order to get the correct height. I actually use a giant balloon in my bag to take up the slack and add suspension.
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PMP Sprockets can sell you +1, -2 gearing and the DRD speedo healer is an easy install to correct the odo.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:56 AM   #13 (permalink)
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That depends on how you get those extra mph. More power=lower mpg, better use of power=higher mpg.

So far no mods, I want to ride it stock for a little bit to get a solid baseline before I start really getting into it.

I do have one question though. Has anyone added an mpguino to one of these yet? I'd love to put one on mine, and I also wonder about adding a speedo fix output to it for when I change the gearing. Otherwise I'll have to buy a speedo calibrator first.
Sure.
I was on the hunt for 100 mph with my GN 250 without engine mods before it went bang ...
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Congratulations Ben! I'm glad you got your new moto and I'm very interested in your progress with it. After Alan's incredible performance at the Mid-Ohio Vetter Challenge I'm thinking about changing platforms for my streamliner and the Honda CBR250R is at the top of my list. I have 2 more Challenges to compete in this year and then I plan to start looking for a CBR250R to streamline for the 2015 season.
I'll be following this thread.
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Old 08-14-2014, 05:22 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Have at it guys! An aero body for a 50cc scooter is on my to do lists.
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Old 08-14-2014, 05:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Grant-53 View Post
Have at it guys! An aero body for a 50cc scooter is on my to do lists.
Something like this Kreidler? I think it's a 50.



Maybe not, but I've always liked it.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:26 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Something like this Kreidler? I think it's a 50.



Maybe not, but I've always liked it.
What is that beautiful machine?! I think I need one!
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:24 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant-53 View Post
gregsfc, It is easy enough to disagree with what others are doing when it doesn't suit your situation. State you preferred position without running down others and you will get more support.
I think that my intent was absolutely misunderstood. I did go on a long rant and I got carried away. My intent was not to be negative; especially to the Vetterites or Vetterettes. My real intent is to be critical of the negativity or lack of inclusiveness of Craig himself regarding other ideas, concepts, product types, etc. In other words, I think I'm promoting positive attitudes and fighting against negativity that is sort of part of the current events. At the AMA event, Vic, Alan, and Richard were all down to earth, supportive and very nice folks that seemed to have a genuine interest in some of the other rides, including some of the stock rides, but this was not true regarding the inventor. There was a level of closed-mindedness that I picked up on, not only at the event, but from watching Youtube interviews, statements, his website, and his quotes. I absolutely respect what he has done for the sport and is offering up to the industry, but I also believe there are other ways of doing things, that, while maybe not as good, are still valid and should still be explored.

The idea that has been offered by the OP does not suit my situation. I don't like that riding position personally. I prefer a straight up, feet slightly forward position just like I had with my previous scooter and my current CTX700. What I don't like though is the proposition that the Vetter-promoted riding position is the only comfortable position; that the Vetter Streamlining shape is the only shape, even if it is the most efficient shape; that 4-bags of groceries upright and left in the bags are in any way more superior than carrying in other way; and that engine technologies are unimportant or insignificant and that only limited horsepower and displacement can have positive impacts on fuel economy. All of these ideas are promoted by him and his events, and everything else is ignored or discouraged. Just because I like the Vetter-promoted riding position and alot of other folks prefer it, does not mean that has to be the only future of two wheel transportation, and I think alot of these other ideas are discouraged in the events. I could bring up a host of details that I witnessed or in some cases was impacted by the way the events are carried out and results posted that are sort of good-ole boy in nature, but then doing that would be negative.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:41 AM   #19 (permalink)
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If you have issues with Craig then take them up with him directly. "To err is human, to forgive is divine." That said we can get on with making progress on a variety of fronts. When I have an informed opinion I hope I can always share it in a courteous manner. It is not easy these days. For example, I will advocate lap belts for motorcycles based on my training and experience in automotive engineering. Not popular but in time we may find useful solutions that include them in some form.
Passion and zeal of an artist can be tempered by the realities of the market place.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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There are some great resources showing what has been done fairing small motorcycles. Thanks to those sharing photos. Kreidlers have long caught my eye. I am also familiar with glider designs for streamlining. We have the National Soaring Museum and the Glenn Curtiss Museum in our area. Those who attend the Green Gran Prix would be well rewarded by visiting these sites. Glenn Curtiss built bicycles and motorcycles before getting into aviation.

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