Certain subjects are immune to logic?

[roflwaffle]

Haiti's problems are due to them being one of the most corrupt (they were number one a few years ago IIRC) countries in the world. They could have no population growth and still have all the same problems until everyone passed away. Groups tend to provide food until they don't have to, and there are many countries that have received food aid in the past and are relatively stable now. A stable food supply is one of those cornerstones of a stable nation, which can in turn reduce population growth at some point in the future.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Haiti's problems are due to them being one of the most corrupt (they were number one a few years ago IIRC) countries in the world. They could have no population growth and still have all the same problems until everyone passed away. Groups tend to provide food until they don't have to, and there are many countries that have received food aid in the past and are relatively stable now. A stable food supply is one of those cornerstones of a stable nation, which can in turn reduce population growth at some point in the future.

It's still a catch 22... stop breeding - more food to go around.

It's like alcoholics who get drunk because they don't have enough money to pay their bills, but the money they spend on alcohol would have been sufficient...

[roflwaffle]

Jesus Christ, you might as well say that slaves in the south were poor because they didn't work hard enough.

It's not like most people over there have a choice in terms of what they spend their money on. Stop breeding, and the corrupt have more food to sell off or whatever they do w/ it. I don't think screwing w/ food or population will change the problems w/ corruption in Haiti.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Christ

http://ecomodder.com/forum/163982-post36.html

That's my conspiracy theory, no matter who believes it.

I believe you,

Sad part is at least for my great uncle who is no longer here to tell the tale, is that there was no theory.

The place he worked at had its well closed because of their deed being nullified. I remember him telling more but I was relatively young, would have been nice to have him write down what happened to him and his friends on that regard the what were and who. He likely told me but I don't remember anymore. My mother and father remember some but they didn't pay much attention it seemed. His wife talked about how they had to move after the government closed the well and they ended up back in Iowa and eventually got a farm.

I have a feeling if others here knew people of the right age, likely you would find similar stories that directly affected them, not everything seems to get put as important history for some reason.

Better reason to keep track and remember I guess.

The sad truth is the really important info isn't kept because people desire to take their info from one source they trust, meaning the individual is left out.

As a whole we know everything, individually very little. I find the information age seems to be almost as much as an information vacuum as it is a provider of such.

[chuckm]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Yeah- that's another one. Is it logical for orgs to "feed the children"... seemingly perpetually? Is there a basic imbalance between demand and local resources that is actually being made worse by that? Is it logical for the average Haitian to have 8 kids (I don't know what the actual average is) then have them grow up eating not much more than dirt?

According to the CIA factbook, the fertility rate in Haiti is 3.81 children per woman (the US is 2.05).

Whether or not overpopulation is the problem, I am convinced that a cornerstone of basic civilization is concern for others, particularly children. If you are only being critical of some hypothetical group that only provides handouts, I'll agree with you ("If a man will not work, neither shall he eat"). I do not want to enable adult stupidity or laziness, here or abroad. However, several of the organizations in the group you are being critical of do indeed work toward sustainable solutions, not merely handouts (Charitable Gift Giving that Makes a Difference | Heifer International is a good example).

[cfg83]

Frank -

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Yeah- that's another one. Is it logical for orgs to "feed the children"... seemingly perpetually? Is there a basic imbalance between demand and local resources that is actually being made worse by that? Is it logical for the average Haitian to have 8[chuckm correction: 3.81] kids (I don't know what the actual average is) then have them grow up eating not much more than dirt?

What is your solution? Are you in favor of the Chinese One Child Policy? As usual, mine is edumacation.

CarloSW2

[gone-ot]

...right about now the sage advice my Dad gave gave me as I went out on my first date seems somehow appropriate: "...don't sow'em if you can't afford'em...", meaning don't make "babies' if you ain't willing to "pay" for them!

...tomorrows' population begins with todays' copulation.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by cfg83

Frank -



What is your solution? Are you in favor of the Chinese One Child Policy? As usual, mine is edumacation.

CarloSW2

I don't necessarily agree with one child per person, or licensed procreation, but the way people act and react stems more from the values they're taught growing up.

To that end, I suggest that people start getting smart about how they act around their children, and think about what kind of information or attitude they're passing on with their actions.

Families like the Duggar family, who seem to think it's amusing to have (now 19) children are just ridiculous, and I don't care who disagrees. There is no way that just the parents are capable of caring for all those children properly, and giving them the attention and love that they need. Sure, the other children can help, but it's not the same, not even a little bit. And, because they're breeding (quite literally) like rabbits, they get a TV show?!? What is this nonsense? This is bordering on the same issue in schools where children who are supposed to be learning can't get the attention and help they need and deserve because there are up to 30-40 kids in a class with only one teacher. It's not quite as bad, granted, but now we're also talking about at home, and all the time, not just a few hours a week in school.

People don't seem to understand that almost nobody in the world learns by listening as much as seeing.

OTM -

My Father gave me the same advice, except in different words -
"A condom's cheaper than a marriage license."

[Christ]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Jesus Christ, you might as well say that slaves in the south were poor because they didn't work hard enough.

It's not like most people over there have a choice in terms of what they spend their money on. Stop breeding, and the corrupt have more food to sell off or whatever they do w/ it. I don't think screwing w/ food or population will change the problems w/ corruption in Haiti.

It doesn't apply specifically to Haiti, so much as applying to the general issue at hand.

If I hear an alcoholic or a smoker complain that they can't afford to pay their bills repeatedly, yet they still have their alcohol and/or cigarettes, I pay them no mind.

If I see a family who can't afford to feed the children they have now, refusing some form of birth control, regardless of the various social/religious reasons for it, I pay them no mind. (Insofar as when they ask for help, charity, etc. I pay them lots of mind when I start noticing mal-nourished children, abuse, etc. and I'm usually the first person to involve authorities.)

I will not give a beggar money. I'll buy him food. If he's trying to support a family, I'll buy enough to feed them all, and try to help as best I can, on a personal level. The way I see it, the ones who give money en passant are only doing it for peace of mind for themselves, and the ability to say they "made a difference", no matter how small of a difference it was, even though a dollar or your pocket change really means nothing.

I have regard for fellow man, I hold a very sincere regard for anyone in need, especially children. That doesn't mean that I'm going to perpetuate an easy way out for anyone.

Frankly, if people don't like the way they're being treated, just like any other animal, they have the choice to oppose, even violently. It's worked thousands of times throughout history, and it can continue to work.

None of that affects the choice that the people of Haiti can make to discontinue breeding (so much), though.

[Frank Lee]

Re: Haitians: Say you're sitting there in Haiti. There hasn't been enough for as long as you can remember and there's no indication the future will be different. You A) have a litter B) control yourself. They're choosing "A"... but why?

carlos: China... perhaps somewhat Draconian... Sometimes I look at certain "examples" and dream of breeding licenses Actually I'd like the first step to be removal of financial incentives to multiply past two, and there are plenty of them. My own pet theory is "0, 1, or 2", based on the not-to-difficult math and presumption that A) overpopulation has negative consequences, B) overpopulation is not a vague concept for the future, it is HERE and it is NOW, C) Were every couple to max out at 2 offspring the pop would not only stabilize, but slowly decline. Then perhaps we wouldn't be talking about populating the solar system after we trash this planet???