The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

So they agreed to tell each other how much they pollute, but not how to stop doing so.
Must be hard to agree on that. It's not like they live on the same planet or such.

Hard to talk about making significant reductions in emissions when the 2 main relevant ways to do it are:

1. reduce your population
2. reduce per capita wealth

Which politician is going to run on that platform?

[RedDevil]

You keep saying that, but it is not like people cannot make choices, nor do those choices necessarily mean a worse life.
You don't really need a gas guzzler. You don't need to fly around the world just for a beach holiday. You can insulate your house. You can weigh pollution and energy use in with all your decisions. It does not have to ruin your life.

Taxing can be a way to steer people away from the bad stuff and the revenue can be used to subsidize greener alternatives. It wouldn't take the right to choose away, but it does nudge people in the desired direction.

[oil pan 4]

The revenue is not going to be used to build greener tech.
In just about every cap and tax scheme most if not all the funds are given to people who reproduce for a living, because the useful idiots at the bottom are the ones that have to help vote it in.
They rob from the rich who don't even notice or can somehow avoid paying it and middle class who do feel the pain and gI've it away to the poor, not just the poor, the rapidly multiplying poor.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

You keep saying that, but it is not like people cannot make choices, nor do those choices necessarily mean a worse life.
You don't really need a gas guzzler. You don't need to fly around the world just for a beach holiday. You can insulate your house. You can weigh pollution and energy use in with all your decisions. It does not have to ruin your life.

Taxing can be a way to steer people away from the bad stuff and the revenue can be used to subsidize greener alternatives. It wouldn't take the right to choose away, but it does nudge people in the desired direction.

No denying any of that. This is essentially what I've been saying, that gentle yet progressive taxation is probably the best way to steer consumers and industry into less waste.

My point though is that this merely delays warming by trivial amounts of time. As a thought experiment, it would be interesting to know what level of fossil fuel consumption would hold CO2 steady given our current population and assuming it doesn't grow.

US energy consumption is highest per capita, but our population hardly grows, and has remained relatively steady. We've got lots of room to cut, and it should be cut, but the problem is much bigger than the US.



Notice that energy consumption drops with the health of the economy. They are strongly correlated.


As an aside, air travel is a very efficient means of travel. It can be near 100 passenger miles per gallon. 2 people in my Prius breaks even, and it would take 3 to exceed that efficiency. For the average vehicle, it takes 4 passengers to equal the efficiency of air travel.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by aerohead

International grid-inter-ties could mitigate some of the issue.N-S,E-W.

Think outside the [Cartesian] box.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map

The missing link is the Bering Strait. It needs a Boring Company tube while they're at it.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Think outside the [Cartesian] box.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map

The missing link is the Bering Strait. It needs a Boring Company tube while they're at it.

Just imagine the trade opportunity once we get access to the city of Naukan Наукан.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by aerohead

I watched all of the David MacKay video today.

https://youtu.be/E0W1ZZYIV8o
.
MacKay was a physicist so everyone here should automatically respect him better than some of my other sources. He was pro rebuildable energy but also "Pro Arithmetic". Numbers like TeraWatt are so big that they are hard to grasp so he coined an interesting term to bring total energy down to an everyday scale.
.
Most people are familiar with an incadescent light bulb. A 40 Watt bulb that is left on uses approximately 1 kWh per day. So he talks about kWh/ day/ person.
The USA uses 250. The UK, Netherlands, or Germany use between 120 to 140.
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The problem with solar wind and biomass is that they are very difuse. Here is his chart of power density.
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When he made the graphic to show the required land area that is needed to supply 125 kWh/ d/ p for the UK he ran out of room to fit biomass into view so keep in mind that this only shows what it takes to make 16 so this is 1/8th of the area that would be required to power the UK. He also shows concentrated solar in an African desert and gives it a value of 20W/m^2 even though he stated that solar PV rooftop can make 5W/ square meter, gridscale farms in the UK at 4w, and concentrated in the desert at 11w. So multiply everything on the map by 8 to get to 125 kWh/d/p and then the yellow area again by 4 to show solar PV farms at 5W/m^2.
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MacKay stated that UK is conuming 1.25 Watts per square meter. To power the UK on wind would need wind farms over 1/2 of the land area. Solar farms would have to cover 1/4 of the land. And would provide 4 times too much energy at noon and nothing all night.
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To power a country with wind and solar, they have to be country sized.
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[redpoint5]

Physicists- the smartest people I work with. Medical doctors give them respect like regular people respect medical doctors.

I know one that bicycles to work every day, snow or no snow. I'll have to ask him about that.

[redneck]

Originally Posted by aerohead

It's kinda like Al Gore mentioned in his slide show:You've got Earth on one side of the balance scale,and those delicious gold bars on the other.

Al Gore would love those “delicious gold bars” on his side of the scale for his carbon credit scheme...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe.../#1533c33c32dc

Marketing Climate Alarm:

Of course this carbon regulation is posited upon saving the Earth based upon a “consensus within the scientific community that increasing the global temperature by more than 2oC will likely cause devastating and irreversible damage to the planet.” And where it comes to promulgating and capitalizing upon carbon-climate-crazed sociopolitical pressure, you would be hard-pressed to find two better authorities.

Gore and Blood, the former chief of Goldman Sachs Asset Management (GSAM), co-founded London-based GIM in 2004. Between 2008 and 2011 the company had raised profits of nearly $218 million from institutions and wealthy investors. By 2008 Gore was able to put $35 million into hedge funds and private partnerships through the Capricorn Investment Group, a Palo Alto company founded by his Canadian billionaire buddy Jeffrey Skoll, the first president of EBay Inc. It was Skoll’s Participant Media that produced Gore’s feverishly frightening 2006 horror film, “An Inconvenient Truth”.

In 2007, following an investigation of the movie, Sir Michael Burton, a judge in London’s High Court, ruled that it can be shown in secondary schools only if accompanied by guidance notes for teachers to balance Mr. Gore’s “one-sided” views. Judge Barton pointed out that its “apocalyptical vision” was politically partisan, and not an impartial analysis. He stated: “It is built around the charismatic presence of the ex-vice president Al Gore, whose crusade is to persuade the world of the dangers of climate change caused by global warming…It is now common ground that this is not simply a science film- although it is based substantially on science research and opinion, but it is [clearly] a political film.”

Then there’s this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe.../#6c34176c39d6

Lol.

It doesn’t matter who or what is in the way.

I guess it all depends who it benefits...

A must read.

With his estimated wealth exceeding $200 million, Albert Arnold Gore has come a long way from the time he began a career in government politics.

At least 100 sacred burial sites gave historic testimony to the fact that Kitanemuk Indians had made their homes in the Elk Hills of central California for thousands of years, land that was surrendered to the U.S. Government through an 1851 treaty. Rich in oil that Occidental sought to gain drilling rights to develop, the region was also inhabited by a rare species of fox, lizard and kangaroo rat which environmental groups fought to protect through a lawsuit filed under the Endangered Species Act. Accordingly, Occidental’s plans were perceived as a threat to both the grave sites and the critters.

Fortunately for Oxy, they had an influential friend. Yup, you probably guessed who. Congratulations!

In these cases, it was Albert Arnold Gore...

Then it’s ok...

Hypocrite...



Maybe Gore should lead by example...

https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/201...y-drew-johnso/

• The past year, Gore’s home energy use averaged 19,241 kilowatt hours (kWh) every month, compared to the U.S. household average of 901 kWh per month.3,4
• Gore guzzles more electricity in one year than the average American family uses in 21 years.5
• In September of 2016, Gore’s home consumed 30,993 kWh in just one month – as much energy as a typical American family burns in 34 months.
• During the last 12 months, Gore devoured 66,159 kWh of electricity just heating his pool. That is enough energy to power six average U.S. households for a year.
• From August 2016 through July 2017, Gore spent almost $22,000 on electricity bills.

Upon winning the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize, Gore stated, “The only way to solve this [environmental] crisis is for individuals to make changes in their own lives.”39 Judging by his own home electricity consumption, Gore is failing to live up to the standards he expects of everyone else.

>

[oil pan 4]

The global warming elitists operate on "do as I say, not as I do" and all the believers are cool with that.
They see nothing wrong with struggling to buy gas and stay warm in winter while people like al gore heat and cool multiple empty mansions while flying around the world a private jet for holiday.
When I say man made global warming i s a religion I was trying to be nice, but it is really a cult.