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Old 02-27-2019, 11:42 AM   #5161 (permalink)
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world needs

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Yes the BigF'nBattery is a gold mine for it's owner's. It is making a fortune off of the backs of the consumers due to the extremely high volatility of the electricity pricing in South Australia due to having prematurely retired too much of their thermal generation. SA is a very small market, using only 2GW or so which is less than some big cities. Even being that small, the scale of storage needed to cover just 10 hours would be another 200 Big batteries. At an install rate of 4/ year is 50 years. Except that they only last 20 years. So after the 20th year you would have to start averaging 10/ year to get that amount of storage built and rebuilt.
.
Or 350,000 EV's pluged into Vehicle to Grid. 1,000,000 cars if they only wanted to give up part of their charge. At least then the car owner could rake in the cash.
.
Scale.
.
NY state or Californina use 10-15X this amount. The USA uses 300X. Currently. Not including rolling in all of the energy for transitioning in all of the personal cars to electric. Which would almost double the demand again.
.
To electrify every aspect of society of society today, not accounting for any growth, the world needs to increase it's electrical production 3X while eliminating all carbon fueled sources. So far, wind and solar build out are not even keeping up with growth. Let alone replacing anything. Let alone another 3X for the conversion.
.
Do the math.
This conclusion would be valid for only one condition.It's color blind.
It does not allow for elasticity in the market.Conditions are negotiable.Nothing's set in stone.Other outcomes are equally possible.

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Old 02-27-2019, 11:53 AM   #5162 (permalink)
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almost double

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Yeah if me and my wife both drove electric cars our power bill would almost double.
And what would become of your cost for operating an ICE vehicle that was no longer happening?
What does the United States spend each year just for annual tailpipe emissions testing and repairs,in areas areas which are out of compliance with EPA Clean Air Act standards?
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Old 02-27-2019, 11:56 AM   #5163 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
This conclusion would be valid for only one condition.It's color blind.
It does not allow for elasticity in the market.Conditions are negotiable.Nothing's set in stone.Other outcomes are equally possible.
You keep saying this as if society can just choose any alternative amount of per capita energy consumption it may wish for without ever offering any data or research as to what you feel is feasible. And then when I say that I believe things will be much smaller and simpler in the future you act as though you disagree with this also.
 
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:00 PM   #5164 (permalink)
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thermal units

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I'm sorry but again you are being misled. I have seen data on the BigBattery as was posted on another forum by someone who lives there and will share it here if I can find it again but I can tell you this from memory: A 100MW battery does not even make a visible dent in any situation of a 2GW grid. Even if it was ever used at a 1C discharge rate. Which we have never seen since some brief tests during commisioning. There was a brown out event when one of the thermal generators suddenly went offline due to extreme unmet demand and the BigBattery was seen to chip in 50 MW in brief spurts off and on for 2 hours. Mining the $2,000/ MWh peaks and really making only an intermittent 2.5% contribution. 50MW is hardly going to break the backs of any thermal supply in a 2GW grid that is only having problems with frequency support due to having prematurely shuttered too much of their previously reliable thermal generation in favor of unreliable wind.
The cost of power from the thermal units exceeds Australia's GDP.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:06 PM   #5165 (permalink)
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energy-trap

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I was referring more to the fast approaching energy trap.
.
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/the-energy-trap/
.
It's another conditional portrayal.There are others.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:20 PM   #5166 (permalink)
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catastrophic

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Sounds like a catastrophic waste of money.
If they want to spend tons of money on something that doesn't generate any electricity then I would rather them do it and fail so we don't waste time and money failing it here.
Wait till you see that catastrophic waste of an atmosphere?
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:22 PM   #5167 (permalink)
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higher

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Yes. The higher prices to the consumer will pay for it.
Lower.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:31 PM   #5168 (permalink)
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gouging

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I read everything you posted and there is some information (intentionally?) missing. The chart showing the wholesale pricing going down 20 minutes after the battery started to contribute 35 MW indicates to me that SA must have several small interconnected grids that bill to a small area independently and they are showing the price change for this small area. This is the only explanation as to how injecting such a small amount of power could have any effect at all. There is no way that a 35MW addition can have ANY meaningful influence on a 2 GW load. But, if the gas companies have quit gouging for their stabilization services during shortages because they don't want to leave the door open for more battery installations that may eventually reach a level that does add up to something substantial, then it has made a good accomplishment.
In the US,Utility providers are paying as much as 77-cents/kWh,wholesale price to fossil-fueled peaking plants,to wheel power onto regional hubs, for summer demand load.Nobody complains.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:33 PM   #5169 (permalink)
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Some worry that in losing access to cheap energy the worst aspects of the past, such as xenophobic tribalism, will resurface. Navigating energy descent will likely require that we take the best of liberal world views like openness to ideas, enthusiasm for change, and tolerance of differences...
I'd say those views and behaviors are important to adopt at all times.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:42 PM   #5170 (permalink)
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power factor

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Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
For the nearly six years that I worked out of Dallas,nearly every client we serviced,had already,or was in the process of upgrading their load infrastructure to address load factor and peak load demand.Every fan,air handler,pump,cooling tower,and chiller,up to 200-ton capacities.
Lighting went from T-11s,to T-8s and electronic ballasts(which now are obsolete with the advent of LEDs)

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