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Old 07-17-2008, 07:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rower4VT View Post
HHO IS A FRAUD!!! I cannot believe that people still think you can get something from nothing. If you are seriously considering installing an HHO;
FIRST take a look at all the fuel logs on this site and gassavers.org and notice that a large large majority of those that stated "installed HHO" or something similar, did not gain any mileage. Some lost mileage, others may have gained incremental mileage however no more than anyone else "new" to hypermiling and making normal tank-to-tank gains.
SECOND do some research on the science. You don't have to look in to the science of an HHO too much before you realize that an HHO increasing FE is about as likely as a perpetual motion car....unless you believe something like that is possible.
THIRD if HHO was so great (something from nothing) then CNN, Popular Mechanics, Motor Trend, and Ford would be all over it and the inventor would win a Nobel Prize!
I hope there's a money-back guarantee with these things.
That statement should be made into a sticky

I guess some people think the electricity it takes to generate on-board hydrogen or Brown's gas is free... as if it take no work to produce a burnable fuel, that's the problem. I think people get confused when a battery storage device is in the car's electrical system, and don't understand how an alternator generates current 'only when there is demand', and that it takes hp to generate that electricity. hp to generate electricy equals gasoline usage.

anox195, Don't listen to me or Rover4vt, though, prove it to yourself: Hydrogen is commercially available, set your car up with a cylinder and to burn a little hydrogen along with gasoline (just don't light up while working with the stuff.. sorry, a cheap joke... all in fun). Seriously, if you did that, it would surprise me if that additional fuel <hydrogen> you've just stoked the fires of combusion with, didn't reduce your gasoline comsumption. No magic there, but no free lunch, either (someone used electricity to produce that hydrogen you just burned)

Key: hydrogen burns, but that isn't at issue so does many other gases. What is at issue is weather or not you can generate Brown's or hydrogen using your car's alternator for free... If you could, you'd have a prepetual motion machine, something for nothing, or 'free lunch'.

 
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metromizer View Post
If you could, you'd have a prepetual motion machine, something for nothing, or 'free lunch'.

If he was running the car completly on hydrogen and was making it from a generator powered by the car, then it would be perpetual motion, just adding some to the fuel currently being used (gasoline), isn't perpetual motion at all.

Don't get me wrong, I personally don't think it (HHO generator) works myself, but thats just my opinion, not a fact. I keep my mouth shut on this issue because it hasn't been proven either way yet. The way I look at it is this: ICE powerplants are not efficient by any stretch, I'm sure there are ways to make the ICE more efficient that haven't been thought up yet. It does us no good to jump down the throats of people who are trying to come up with ideas. Maybe there's the possibility that an HHO generator could become efficient enough to produce enough hydrogen to make an engine use less gas.. maybe there isn't.. but there is most certainly something out there that can, and if we don't pioneer it, we'll never find it. The real problem is the people who see these ideas as "get rich quick" scam and market a bunch of usless crap with claims of doubling your fuel mileage for only $99.99, thats where skepticism, like mine, comes from. That and there's also the people who know their chemistry and have done the math. So far, everyone I've seen who has actually done their homework, has concluded that HHO doesn't work, and by the numbers, I believe them.
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Last edited by reformed; 07-19-2008 at 11:21 AM.. Reason: grammar... as usual
 
Old 07-18-2008, 05:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The Best Way To Open A Can Of Worms...

Any HHO topic.

Build what you want, test what you want. The Wright Bros., Edison and many other inventors were pretty much thought of idiots for what we now take for granted today.

This website is all about proving skeptics wrong.

I am sure there are people that think basjoos is full of it about his mileage claims and data.

You can make anything work if you work at it long enough. If it doesn't work, make it work.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by anox195 View Post
Ill be using 2 1 quart tanks, each will be cleaned and refilled with distilled water every 2 months...
This is my point exactly! You will be using a total of 2 quarts of water in the tanks. The actual "usable" amount of water will be much less than that because the electrodes have to stay mostly covered in water to work efficiently...so optimistically assume that you will use a pint of water before you have to refill. You also mention you're only going to change the water every 2 months. The amount of hydrogen produced from a pint of water is incredibly minimal. If you do the research, do the math, learn the chemistry, you would have to use close to a pint of water per DAY, not per 2-MONTHS to see any noticable increase in your mpg. Once again, do the research, look up how much hydrogen you get per volume of water, and you'll soon see that the numbers don't add up.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1.5Ldave View Post
Research shows that hydrogen boosting a gas motor has the potential to work, even if the technology to make it truly efficient is not widely available yet. Most people are quick to hate on the idea, calling it perpetual motion etc, but to date no one has any conclusive documented proof either way; therefore I will remain undecided until the time some hard data is available.
You are correct and I completely agree that "hydrogen boosting a gas motor has the potential to work"...unfortunately if you use energy from the engine to produce the hydrogen that you're going to burn in the engine then the net result is zero....actually negative result theoretically given thermal losses. Go look up "conservation of energy". Conservation of energy is an incredibly well established principle. The spliting of H2O into 2H and O uses a certain amount of energy. When you rejoin the 2H and O you gain that energy back. So that gives you a net gain of 0 (zero)...minus the thermal losses (energy lost as heat in the convertion of water to 2H and O and energy lost when the convertion is reversed). So your net gain when using HHO is negative. The reason you don't see the "losses" from using an HHO is that you are using such a minimal amount of water in the HHO that you don't even notice it. But the bottom-line is that you are using more gasoline in the end and decreasing your gas mileage (though unnoticable).
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The problem with that is...my engine is not splitting the atoms! 12+V DC is giving me my hydrogen on demand, also I do not plan on replacing water often, maybe clean it out and refill every 4 months. Hydrogen will only fuel about 30% of my cars needs. So the other 70% will come from gas. The alternator will recharge my battery. So basically I see nothing wrong, although I am a little delayed in the project, im having trouble finding the right size cells but i've picked up everything else i need

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I live in MS and have no weather problems for the water average temp during summer is 95 F and winter is 50+ F, its not good for people in extreme cold or heat but im the perfect candidate.
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Last edited by anox195; 07-20-2008 at 03:13 PM.. Reason: forgot something
 
Old 07-20-2008, 05:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anox195 View Post
The problem with that is...my engine is not splitting the atoms! 12+V DC is giving me my hydrogen on demand, also I do not plan on replacing water often, maybe clean it out and refill every 4 months. Hydrogen will only fuel about 30% of my cars needs. So the other 70% will come from gas. The alternator will recharge my battery. So basically I see nothing wrong
Yea but there's the fact that the alternator is driven by the engine, which is powered by gasoline. If you put more load on the charging system, it is going to make the engine work harder to keep up, therefore consuming more gas in the process. Currently it doesn't look like there are any systems efficient enough to overcome this.
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Old 07-20-2008, 05:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Hello,

It cannot produce more energy than is put in -- it cannot be a perpetual motion machine.
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Old 07-20-2008, 06:57 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by reformed View Post
Yea but there's the fact that the alternator is driven by the engine, which is powered by gasoline. If you put more load on the charging system, it is going to make the engine work harder to keep up, therefore consuming more gas in the process. Currently it doesn't look like there are any systems efficient enough to overcome this.
Yup driven by the engine...The engine has no idea that its running off 30% hydrogen 70% gas, I have no perpetual motion machine, just must more efficient.
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It is a common misconception that the power you get from the alternator comes for free. IT DOES NOT.

It takes GASOLINE to run the alternator - with the resultant 20% efficiency of the gasoline engine, and another loss in the alternator output.

The electricity splits the water into oxygen and hydrogen with yet another loss of efficiency.

The oxygen and hydrogen are recombined in the internal combustion engine, along with the burning of gasoline and oxygen. This is a further loss of efficiency.

Adding oxygen and hydrogen to the input gas stream DOES NOT improve the efficiency of the gasoline burn, and CAN NOT produce more energy than is put in.

Throw a solar panel on the roof and use THAT to crack the water, but do not think you will get any improved efficiency from cracking the water with the alternator.

You have thrown your money away if you think this will work. The law of conservation of energy will beat you every time. It's the same as trying to make your car levitate - the law of gravity is your enemy on that one.

I look forward to seeing how you convince yourself that this is working, but I predict that you will be rather disappointed.

Here's a link for a bit more information on hydrogen.
http://www.tinaja.com/h2gas01.asp

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