Craig Vetter Quote...

[jkv357]

Originally Posted by pletby

Hey Jay, how goes? Seems when I pass through your State every 3 months it's the one with the slowest speed limit (65 if I remember?) I encounter. 70 to 75 being the norm. Guess what? When I'm doing that speed limit in other faster States I'm the slow one. I think it's pretty darn realistic for the average American Interstate.

The average American (or Canadian for that matter) will not be looking to maximize mileage until things get much worse than they are. They'll be most concerned with how long it'll take them to get home after work, and how comfortable they are. They'll fill their blue box for recycling and pat themselves on the back for how eco friendly they are. I hope I'm wrong.

Just slow down and grab a Brat next time through!

Well, my question to Craig was about "real world" riding for practical purposes, and his goals look to be a blend of practicality and economy. Unless we are focused on Interstate riding the 70 MPH speed seems excessive for a mileage contest.

I don't run my daily errands at 70-75 MPH on the Interstate - do you?

That's why I asked about the 70 MPH "rule". Most of the small bikes here that can produce very high MPG numbers while running typical errands would struggle maintaining that speed without significant streamlining.

I do agree - your average American or Canadian could care less about what it would take to get exceptionally high MPG at this point.

[Frank Lee]

It's about more than running errands. It's about what you'd drive to do most everything.

And out where Craig lives, people jump on the interstate even to go a few miles. That's just the way the topography and roads are.

[PeterS]

It really sounds as though the comp needs a few more classes . Here 50mph is average and I seldom travel on a freeway.I live 20 mile from town on a 2 lane road with no traffic lights .

The current comp rules are meaningless to my normal riding .

[user removed]

Look at it this way. Craig Vetter has been reducing fuel consumption for decades. For members like PeterS and many others average speeds of 20-25 MPH are possible, and for many acceptable. Those with that kind of driving environment will always be in a position to top the charts on ecomodder with great mileage figures, if they have chosen the right vehicle. Others who have less fuel efficient vehicles can easily double EPA figures with low average speeds and hypermiling techniques. My average speeds are close to 40 MPH for complete tanks of fuel. I don't have the option of reducing those average speeds in my driving environment without considerably increasing the personal danger to me and my family, and I doubt that I would drive that slow anyway.

This forum concentrates on how you can best improve your mileage. My personal focus is on improving my mileage while getting there in the same amount of time I would have decades ago. My routes offer me advantages over others in more densely populated regions, but less advantages compared to those in lightly travelled rural areas that are "off the beaten path" of high traffic flow.

The real question is would you change the rules in your contest if you were a member of the tiny percentage of people who have been efficiency advocates for so long that many here were not even born when you started your quest, or would you want to focus on your field of expertise.

Most rational people would already know the answer to that question. If not just watch the drivers around you, especially when you are a real impediment to traffic flow. You are increasing the danger threshold for everyone. Sure you have the right to ignore the flow of traffic around you, but do you have the right to make everyone else's drive more frustrating and dangerous, because the don't "see the light" of your more intelligent pursuits.

regards
Mech

[cvetter]

Let me reiterate the “Spirit” of my goals. 3 out of 4 gallons of the petroleum we Americans consume in our vehicles is imported. This is making us poor and them rich. My goal to encourage the development of vehicles that eliminate the need to import petroleum, while, at the same time, allow us to live better than we do now.

Focusing on the “Spirit” of the goals and not get lost in details will keep us focused on what is really important.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

The real question is would you change the rules in your contest if you were a member of the tiny percentage of people who have been efficiency advocates for so long

It seems that the rules change with every rally, and more often than in F1.

People's bikes were (re)designed or altered to comply to the original set of requirements - Vetter's requirements, and likely not the every-day requirements of his competitors - so when a requirement wasn't particularly useful to them, they solved it creatively to enter the competition.

Now they're faced with different requirements that may not particularly suit their everyday use of the vehicles.

Do you expect them to alter their vehicles, again and again as the rules change ?

[redyaris]

Originally Posted by euromodder

It seems that the rules change with every rally, and more often than in F1.

People's bikes were (re)designed or altered to comply to the original set of requirements - Vetter's requirements, and likely not the every-day requirements of his competitors - so when a requirement wasn't particularly useful to them, they solved it creatively to enter the competition.

Now they're faced with different requirements that may not particularly suit their everyday use of the vehicles.

Do you expect them to alter their vehicles, again and again as the rules change ?

Yes
Just like in F1...

[cvetter]

The rules for the vehicles were posted Jan 12, 2011 have not changed. I have been forced to clarify the rules. I assumed you understood that carrying groceries needed to be upright and accessible. The bagboy at Safeway understands that. For some Challengers, carrying 4 bags of groceries upright had been clarified. Accelerating and coasting? I never imagined anybody thinking that accelerating and coasting would be normal driving. You may drive that way all you want, but you may not win a Vetter Challenge. If it was just a leader and me in a Challenge, with one Challenger in between, you would not be able to "pulse and glide" because there would be no room. You would have dropped behind me in about 2 seconds and eliminating yourself from winning. Thus, you have forced me to clarify that rule, too.

The last thing I want to do is change the rules as we all need a fixed target to be building to.

The goals have not changed. The spirit has not changed. Challengers have forced me to clarify the rules. Otherwise, the rules have not changed.

I think it is important to keep the spirit at the forefront of our goals and not get lost in details.

[jkv357]

I guess I do understand why P&G really isn't fitting during the Challenge, just for the fact that it's run basically like a "group ride" (if I understand it correctly) - where it would create safety concerns IMO.

The part that most of us here have a problem with, I think, is that it doesn't sound like you see any benefit of utilizing P&G whenever possible as a tool to increase mileage. There are many opportunities in the real world to use it, depending mostly on traffic, location, and specific riding conditions of course.

It's basically trading the penalty of brief acceleration for the benefit of extended coasting - and coasting is saving fuel.

When you said you're not willing to change your driving habits to improve fuel economy (post #56) it surprised me, because it's the simplest way to significantly increase it IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate your efforts now and then to call attention to the need for increased fuel economy, I just have been surprised by some of your comments.


Jay

[cvetter]

Really, my best contribution is in establishing the goals. As a designer, I am most concerned with helping to inspire the development of vehicles that can help us live better on less energy. Vehicle design is what I do. Riding style is what you do.

They work together. Just not in the Vetter Challenge.

As an old racer, I learned to change one thing at a time. That way we can tell "what is doing what". I want to keep the changes simple in the Vetter Challenges.

I will work to improve the design. You can work improving the driving.

By the way, Alan Smith is putting the new Vetter Streamline Kit on his 250 Ninja:

2011 Streamlining a Kawasaki Ninja-Chap 44
and
Chapter 45

Changing just the streamlining. Nothing else. It should tell us a lot.