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Old 06-24-2020, 04:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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critical theory

I'd be more than happy with critical thinking. If the general population could master that, providing for the general welfare would fall into place by default.
But that's exactly why a Ronald Reagan would wittingly defund it, killing it in the crib.
Some would rather that light not be shined into certain darkened corners.

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Old 06-24-2020, 04:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
I'd be more than happy with critical thinking. If the general population could master that, providing for the general welfare would fall into place by default.
But that's exactly why a Ronald Reagan would wittingly defund it, killing it in the crib.
Ponder the distinction between critical thinking and critical theory. Words matter. It's like the distinction between anarchy and anarchism.
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Originally Posted by OP
3. The Critical Engineer deconstructs and incites suspicion of rich user experiences.
Say What?

We have 'a Ronald Reagan'. He's talking about going to Mars.
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
I'd be more than happy with critical thinking. If the general population could master that, providing for the general welfare would fall into place by default.
But that's exactly why a Ronald Reagan would wittingly defund it, killing it in the crib.
Some would rather that light not be shined into certain darkened corners.
This is critical thinking, in the sense of analysis of power and the implicit and connotative meanings of public rhetoric on engineering and its marketing. That by the way is what the point about "rich user experiences" would be pointing toward, if I understand correctly. We are routinely marketed new technologies with an emphasis on rhetoric thickly layered with connotations of freedom or convenience or labor saving. But the full meaning of new technologies, especially in the software department it seems to me, is often obscured. The ethical and power implications. How our place as individuals in society changes. The full range of such things is rarely if ever as fully disclosed or discussed.

I would rather we not bring political figures or parties into this. Critical thinking is not a party issue. And the "manifesto," such as it is, is not about such politics per se. It is about ethics and the analysis of power.
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Critical thinking is not a party issue. And the "manifesto," such as it is, is not about such politics per se. It is about ethics and the analysis of power.
The hair you appear to be splitting is exceedingly fine. Thinking critically about this theory...
Quote:
0. The Critical Engineer considers Engineering to be the most transformative language of our time, shaping the way we move, communicate and think. It is the work of the Critical Engineer to study and exploit this language, exposing its influence.
Rather than best practices then, it's a lever to dismantle the status quo.
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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thinking / political

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Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
This is critical thinking, in the sense of analysis of power and the implicit and connotative meanings of public rhetoric on engineering and its marketing. That by the way is what the point about "rich user experiences" would be pointing toward, if I understand correctly. We are routinely marketed new technologies with an emphasis on rhetoric thickly layered with connotations of freedom or convenience or labor saving. But the full meaning of new technologies, especially in the software department it seems to me, is often obscured. The ethical and power implications. How our place as individuals in society changes. The full range of such things is rarely if ever as fully disclosed or discussed.

I would rather we not bring political figures or parties into this. Critical thinking is not a party issue. And the "manifesto," such as it is, is not about such politics per se. It is about ethics and the analysis of power.
If we had critical thinking, it would cover everything they seem to be concerned with.
As to 'politics', I was just commenting on a historical fact, written about by critical thinkers like Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer, germane to the discussion.
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Old 06-24-2020, 06:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If we had critical thinking, it would cover everything they seem to be concerned with.
As to 'politics', I was just commenting on a historical fact, written about by critical thinkers like Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer, germane to the discussion.
Certainly germane. Tell me more. I just don't wanna debate political figures or politics or petitions for federal action. I meant no offense. This is about the ideas these self-described "critical engineers" raise as the the ethical and power relationships between people and technology. I placed it in this subforum hoping we could discuss core EM interests in light of the manifesto. For example, the way cars are increasingly treated like smart phones, and we hackers not permitted access to the ECU or software as in the 1990s and early 00s. Or how fuel economy is marketted as a product of a gasoline or gas additive purchase when a host of simple--free--hypermiling techniques are far better. I think that manifesto is very EM relevant.

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The hair you appear to be splitting is exceedingly fine. Thinking critically about this theory...

Rather than best practices then, it's a lever to dismantle the status quo.
"dismantle the status quo" is your characterization. It is not what they wrote. They wrote about exposing the influence of engineering. I think they mean software especially, it seems.
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Last edited by California98Civic; 06-24-2020 at 09:05 PM.. Reason: open bracket missing on quote
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:26 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
dismantle the status quo is your characterization. It is not what they wrote.
Well... Yeah... So?

Maybe they independently reinvented the language and tropes of the intersectional left. It is so far from Synergetics and Humanism I don't see a path back.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:38 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Well... Yeah... So?
Maybe they independently reinvented the language and tropes of the intersectional left. It is so far from Synergetics and Humanism I don't see a path back.
Synergetics seems interesting, but I don't yet see how it’s related to either critical assessments of human relationships mediated by technology or to engineering. I am not saying it isn't, but you didn't offer your sense of the connection. What's the connection? Even more, what's a Synergetics-inspired take on the modding and hypermiling that we do on EM? Maybe it's a stretch to try and make these connections....

Re: your “so" question... I just want to avoid political discussions. This thread is not for a political discussion. "Intersectional left" is political rhetoric. I hope its possible to talk about power, ethics, technology, and public knowledge about technology without running up flags for the left and the right. We have enough of that in life. I'm not promoting “critical engineering.” I just think they're into an interesting interdisciplinary thing.
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Old 06-25-2020, 04:35 AM   #19 (permalink)
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To account for Synergetics would be to recount the inspiring story of what one individual —'Guinea Pig B' he called himself— was able to do.
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I happen to have been born at the special moment in history in which for the first time there exists enough experience-won and experiment verified information current in humanity's spontaneous conceptioning and reasoning for all humanity to carry on in a far more intelligent way than ever before.

I am not being messianically motivated in undertaking this experiment, nor do I think I am someone very special and different from other humans. The design of all humans, like all else in Universe, transcends human comprehension of "how come' their mysterious, a priori, complexedly designed existence.
https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/biography/guinea-pig-b

He was a new England Transcendentalist like his aunt. He was considered the Ur-environmentalist. He wanted flying cars.



As for the politics — I didn't want to use the word left but I was lazy. I don't have words (*cough*Frankfurt School Marxist*cough*) to describe the systematic dismantling of the statues and institutions that have brought us to this point in history.

Washington freed his slaves (on his deathbed) and Jefferson created the Navy that stopped the Barbary pirates (the ISIS of their day). That all happened before the creation of political parties, and the somewhat illusory division they have engendered.

They aren't really that far apart but there is no middle ground. \_(ツ)_/
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Yeah, but freebeard, though flying cars are cool, maybe, there is no analysis of power in the project and no repositioning of the reader to analyze the world we must drive through tomorrow and the day after. And while Fuller surely felt confident that his age knee the laws governing the universe well known, I am not sure physicists of our age would say the same, now that they have experimentally demonstrated "spooky action at a distance."

Here is another cool project--not as advanced as Fuller--that would be a failed critical engineering project, if it were one. But I think this could be as cool as anything the critical engineering group has attempted, like cleverly repurposing iPhone innards.

Were these guys to disassemble some of this crap and make something more useful from it, or make a fuel saving device that works and then reveal the damage it might do, or explain hypermile practices, or the placebo effect or confirmation bias or something... it may or may not be more "critical" but it would be more creative. I think there is a successful, unique opportunity in such demos, actually. But better, teach people not to trust the package or the store that sells it because the scam is revealed at a deeper level than just "look, it does not work." The scam is that any such simple device will be effective, safe for the car, and legal.


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