Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by cowmeat

Not sure where you think my perspective as an Insight owner is skewed, the car perfectly matches my driving needs.

Like I said, presented with a deal like that I would have jumped at it too. Problem is your current low fuel cost are only possible because someone else subsidized your fuel costs when they bought new.

So if asked 'Do hybirds make sense?' your answer is basically, 'As long as someone else pays for them', since you're actually driving a car that will never pay for itself.

[RedDevil]

The Jazz Hybrid is less than € 2000 higher priced than a likewise specced non-hybrid 1.4 Jazz CVT.
It is 20% more economical not only in fuel but also maintenance. Less brake wear for one.
It should earn its extra price back, certainly here with our still high fuel prices.

It is also much more fun to drive.

[cowmeat]

So if asked 'Do hybirds make sense?' your answer is basically, 'As long as someone else pays for them', since you're actually driving a car that will never pay for itself.

Somebody else has already paid the depreciation on any car that you buy used whether or not it's a hybrid, what point are you trying to make? If you buy a new car thinking it will pay for itself, good luck to you! Would I buy a brand new hybrid? I can't even relate to that question, because I would never buy a new car for my commute, or even make payments on my DD.

If my commute was shorter I'd just bike it, but a car is a necessity for me, so I saved back money for a couple of years like usual, picked the used car that makes the most sense for my situation, pursued it relentlessly until I found the best one out there, wore the dealer down until I got a nice deal on it like I would have on any other car I was pursuing, and it absolutely makes sense for me.

[vibrating_cake]

I'm suprised nobody has picked up on something i said a while ago...
I'm from the UK so we get the EURO civic (2.2 litre turbo diesel).
Yes it's a tank, at nearly 300kg heavier (weighbridge) than my current CRZ (1.5 petrol hybrid)
It has 4 useable seats, plus lots of space for loading and unloading things, bikes, garden waste, moving house, tools etc. It's pretty fast and gets 63mpg(uk) on the highway(motorway)
Book numbers do not agree with the highway numbers i forget what they are, that's with no hypermiling, no driving economically, that was drive to the motorway on a cold engine, run up to 70mph and hit cruise control...

The CRZ on the other hand, struggles to hit 60mpg(uk) on the highway/motorway, same technique, up to 70mph, hit cruise control.
eco mode gets close at 58-59mpg, where sport mode returns 53-55mpg, not sure what normal mode gives, but i'm sure its between the two!

This coming from a NORMAL driver, none of this engine off pulse and glide etc.
We are in the real world, not specifically on this form.

Town driving... lets go figure this one out,
43mpg 2.2 diesel civic +300kg
43mpg 1.5 petrol CRZ...

The CRZ has back seats in europe... not that anyone can fit in there who's over 3 foot tall. Not much luggage room, but fun to drive.

All this compromise gives... less overall MPG than the big dirty diesel.
Although, i must say, i do ENJOY the CRZ more, but i still have a soft spot for the power surge from the big diesel.

I still own both cars, the civic needs a grill block in winter, or you're freezing your nuts off for the first 20minutes of driving, plus getting horrid mpg for the first 20minutes, the grill block reduces this to 5minutes, and is worth a good 10mpg on a 40min commute, and closer to 5mpg on an hour+commute.

The thing is with old cars, if you buy an old car for £50 (which you can in the uk) and legally run it for 11months until the MOT runs out, scrap it for the same £50 in metal weight price, no depreciation, but probably a few on-going repairs. And run a full years loss at cost of repairs (say less than £500, if not you scrap it early) that's the cheapest way to drive!

The thing is, does the crz make sense, or do i buy another 2.2 litre turbo diesel civic.
Not really, i like the CRZ, it's nice to drive and in traffic is a dream compared to the civic.
But i have kept the civic (my better half now commutes in it) because it is 10x better than the CRZ on the highway(motorway) so much more stable and better visibility and MPG.

The perfect family would be EV replacing the CRZ, and keeping the civic for long distances, take the hit on the commuting MPG, for practicality and the need for RANGE, offset it with the cost of EV.

But batteries are nowhere near what they need to be for a propper EV, i ran the numbers on the CRZ and a nissan leaf (with battery rental) price per mile on both were between 11 and 13pence per mile (1p being £0.01) not sure what that is in cents etc???
Whereas the civic is on 15p per mile, due to diesel costing more in the UK.

So, once batteries are up to scratch for EV/propper hybrid, the ideal world (for me) would be one big hybrid, say SUV but with plenty of luggage space and the ability to tow!
and a smaller city EV, like the leaf, or smaller.

But we can afford to drive like idiots and run the cars we want so buying an EV would just be for pleasure and the experience.

Keeping the civic means it's paid for completley and it's now just on 100,000 miles, no extra cost.

[elhigh]

We're finally getting closer to the original "does it make sense" question. I'm seeing lots of arguing of the merits of this vs. that, and weighing the economics.

I think we're forgetting motivations. Whether or not something makes sense depends on your motivation, on your priorities.

Humans don't make demands strictly on the basis of math and specifications. If they did, we'd all still be driving something much simpler, like five-door Metros.

Fat Charlie will likely cue in here and say something deprecating about marketing. He's right, but not right enough. Marketing works because we already make emotional decisions, even without marketing trying to skew our perception. It works because we let it. So marketing can have sinister overtones, but only because we allow it to have an effect on us. You can be purely intellectual, and then marketing is merely noise.

Obviously the hybrids make sense to the companies or they wouldn't build them. Obviously the hybrids make sense to the customers or they wouldn't buy them. The shortest answer to the original question is this:

Do hybrids make sense? Yes. Unless they don't. If not, there are other options open to you. Perhaps those will make more sense. What makes sense, however, is a completely personal finding that only the individual can define.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

Problem is your current low fuel cost are only possible because someone else subsidized your fuel costs when they bought new..

That's nonsense. By that logic, everyone who choses to buy used rather than new is being subsidized in exactly the same manner.

[Hersbird]

The original Insight was subsidized by the government and probably sold at a loss as a statement by Honda. Had it carried its own water used ones would still be over $10,000 and wouldn't work on the math. But since it was, and many new cars still are means that they do make sense form a cost standpoint.
OldT may have also just been talking about this particular Insight a 110,000 mile one with a brand new battery For $4100. There aren't many if any other one out there this cheap so it was subsidized by somebody selling it WAY below market. If my dad bough me a car and gave it to me for free it suddenly looks pretty good on a cost per mile comparison.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by elhigh

Obviously the hybrids make sense to the companies or they wouldn't build them. Obviously the hybrids make sense to the customers or they wouldn't buy them.

Or are companies just building hybrids to meet ever tighter regulations? The way European regs are shaping up, ICE's will soon be a thing of the past. We now have Ferrari, Porsche and McLaren building hybrids that beat Prius economy in official testing (they're doing it in part to cheat the system - we can be confident no owners will be seeing 60MPG from their hypercars real world).

As I've shown with the Gen 1 Insight, a car doesn't have to make sense (whether your motivation is financial or environmental) for people to buy it. Even against the more practical Civic, the Insight would have to cover over 1 million miles to break even.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by cowmeat

Somebody else has already paid the depreciation on any car that you buy used whether or not it's a hybrid, what point are you trying to make? If you buy a new car thinking it will pay for itself, good luck to you!

It's true that all cars depreciate, for a car to make sense, it has to make sense from start to finish. It's no good cherry picking a point in it's life after which it starts to make sense.

What's a Gen 1 worth over there anyway? As cars get more complex, more and more people will buy new over used, taking a gamble on a used car isn't what it used to be. After $25K worth of bills on a used VW (~30,000miles, FSH etc), I doubt I'll ever buy used again. As more people get stung for repairs on ever more complex cars, I foresee a lot of cars consigned to scrap yards at much lower miles than ever before (my VW was worth more as scrap at 30k!). It only takes a very minor issue to take $1000 to repair on a new car, so the $1000 cars will soon be a thing of the past.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I P&G/ EOC at BSFC close to 90% of the time so I guess the ICE wins.

I think that 90% is an large exaggeration... the BSFC for the vehicles in your signature would make that nearly impossible ... plus you can't be in the peak ICE BSFC point for any of the time you are in EOC coasting .. which I suspect is more than 10% of the time ... the two (Peak BSFC and EOC) are mutually exclusive... and you can't be in peak BSFC point at several vehicle speeds you have to travel at while doing your P&G (the RPM won't line up).

You're also going the wrong direction ... the HEV looses value when the load doesn't vary ... a varying load via P&G still fits in with the HEV benefits.

The HEV can actually do all the same P&G you can do with your ICE-Only ... but the HEV has the potential to better P&G than the ICE-Only vehicle does .. due to previously described effects.

Also .. If your speed varies with your P&G you get an aerodynamic penalty ... requiring you to spend more energy than just traveling at the same average speed ... HEVs can be designed to achieve the ICE P&G effect ... without the vehicle speed P&G penalty ... that is something the ICE-Only can not do... thus the HEV has better P&G potential than the ICE-Only can ever do.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

We also know that a aeromodded Suzuki/Metro can match an Insight in the right hands.

Not in equally skilled hands ... In Equally skilled hands the Gen1 will do better than the Suzuki/Metro (even with Aeromods)

Unless you have an example of a (non-PHEV) AeroModed Metro getting better than 164MPG on one tank of gas over a long distance like the 2,254 Miles as was done with the Gen1 Insight.?? And that was with AFAIK only a FAS mod for P&G ... Spend an equal amount of time and money (as you did modding the metro Aero) instead into improve the Gen1 Insight and it could get even better than that 164MPG 2,254 Mile run.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

So no Insight owner I'm aware of has a car that's actually reached the break even point yet!

Hi ... I am Ian ... It's nice to met you.
Now you have