Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[elhigh]

According to Wikipedia, the first gen Insight sold for about $19K, which is crazy steep for an unfamiliar two seater economy car in North America. Honda may have sold it at a loss, but there was no subsidization coming from the government.

Derating the price at 80% as you have done yields a per-piece actual value of $23,600 - not far from where the price stands now, which makes sense considering Honda has gained considerable experience and expertise with the materials, economies of scale as the market has expanded, etc.

Your numbers are not making sense. If you looked it up in an old buyer's guide, I would strongly suggest you corroborate those numbers with another source. It looks like a simple typo to me, a 4 that should be a 1 - if that's the case, then your Insight example should cost $18,990, which would be exactly in line with North American prices, which at the time I think would have been almost the same as Australian prices.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by elhigh

According to Wikipedia, the first gen Insight sold for about $19K, which is crazy steep for an unfamiliar two seater economy car in North America.

But crazy cheap for an aluminum-bodied sports car. Which BTW is why I bought my Insight: not primarily as an economy car, but as a direct replacement for my CRX. And one of a series starting with my first Austin-Healey Sprite.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

The current Insight is a shade under $40k which is about line ball considering the exchange rate of $0.80.

In the US, the current Insight MSRP runs $18,725 - $23,915, or AUS $24,581 - $31,391, per current exchange rates: Options and Pricing - 2014 Honda Insight Hybrid - Official Site (Most of the price difference on the high-end model seems to be for GPS navigation, BlueTooth audio, &c - nothing to do with the hybrid system.) So my guess is that Australia must add some hefty import duties or other taxes.

[cowmeat]

Lets do the maths, it's really not that hard.

Your "maths" isn't adding up, I think your calculator is malfunctioning!

For there to be any used Insights there would have to have been people stupid enough to have bought one new. That didn't happen. I've only ever seen one. I'd buy one if I could, and happy in the knowledge some shmuck got taken for a ride on the original depreciation.

There are certainly some newer hybrids that can be justified, the 1st Gen just isn't one of them.

There were three of them in my driveway this weekend. Are you just typing random words in this thread?

***Un-subscribed***

[RedDevil]

I think the very high Aussie sales price for the first gen Insight is all about being such a low volume car that it comes at a big margin, dropping potential sales, making it even more of an unicorn, raising the price further.
So I do believe it was that expensive over there.

It was a test bed for Honda, who never expected to earn back the investment on the low sales numbers.
They may have gained from the lessons learned on the Insight in other models.

One other thing that is much higher in Australia than in the temperate part of the northern hemisphere is winter temperatures.
So when you compare the (90 days accumulate) garage entries for hybrids with an upside down Twinair in March, you get quite some distortion in the numbers.
Try again in September

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

And I suppose the hybrids operate at BSFC while EOCing?

No .. as I already wrote ... Peak BSFC and EOC are mutually exclusive .. Hybrid or not .. it is not possible to do both at the same time.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

All I know is my engine is either at 80-100% load of it's off. It might not technically be BSFC but high load is efficient even if the RPM is off.

% load is not % of peak BSFC ... there are parts of the BSFC that a higher % load is LESS energy efficient ... look at the BSFC for your ICE... or you can also see this in the BSFC I already posted.

The goal is for highest average ICE operating efficiency ... not highest average load.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

My Fiat 500 returns 50mpg without any EOC or hybird or anything. Just a small turbo engine and a manual gearbox - A/C on, still giving it a bit of a thrashing as appropriate, and even sharing the driving 30% with a non-hypermiler. It's CD is 0.36. I dare say that if this engine were simply slotted into an aerodynamic light weight Insight body, it would return numbers in the 70's.

Got a BSFC for that ICE ??
For me ... That's the important data... as far as weather such a swap would be a MPG pro or con.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I expect my Fiat to be in that range soon

Glad to hear it.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by cowmeat

Your "maths" isn't adding up, I think your calculator is malfunctioning!

There were three of them in my driveway this weekend. Are you just typing random words in this thread?

***Un-subscribed***

At around US$40k, on one in Australia bought them. In fact I suspect that the demo car each dealer got was about it. If Honda were losing money on them in the US market then I guess that's a different story, but it still means the car can't stand on it's own merit.

Originally Posted by RedDevil

One other thing that is much higher in Australia than in the temperate part of the northern hemisphere is winter temperatures.
So when you compare the (90 days accumulate) garage entries for hybrids with an upside down Twinair in March, you get quite some distortion in the numbers.

Don't forget how hard the A/C is working in summer on a 44*C day. I actually see my economy at it's worst over Dec-Jan. The worst deficit recorded was with a 2.3 petrol Mercedes, I went from 11-13l/100km to 18! An no there was nothing wrong with the A/C, I think I would have to live way, way up north to see that sort of change from the cold. Besides which, there are cars from similar North American climates on here too.

It's also worth noting that my 500 is possibly the only 50mpg car on here to have seen a race track. It doesn't get babied all the time

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by elhigh

Your numbers are not making sense. If you looked it up in an old buyer's guide, I would strongly suggest you corroborate those numbers with another source. It looks like a simple typo to me, a 4 that should be a 1 - if that's the case, then your Insight example should cost $18,990, which would be exactly in line with North American prices, which at the time I think would have been almost the same as Australian prices.

I know from memory they were in the $40k bracket - the buyers guide even makes a point of how expensive they were. There aren't any real tariffs (5% maybe at the time on the wholesale price), and a 21% sales tax at the time, but these applied to the Civic as well.

For comparison the 1st Gen Prius cost $40k new. We know Toyota lost money on each one they sold, and that was just a basic Yaris/Echo with a hybrid system added. The bespoke alloy bodied Insight clearly cost a lot more to develop, so we can only assume the losses were greater.

I infer from this that in the US market Honda lots many thousands on every 1st Gen sold.

But yes, today it's a bit different as the Camry Hybrid only adds $5k over the ICE models. I presume they're no longer selling them at a loss.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But crazy cheap for an aluminum-bodied sports car. Which BTW is why I bought my Insight: not primarily as an economy car, but as a direct replacement for my CRX. And one of a series starting with my first Austin-Healey Sprite.

Now this I can fully appreciate I'd love a BMW i3 largely for it's carbon fibre body. I bought my Fiat as it was the lightest decent car on the market.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by IamIan

No .. as I already wrote ... Peak BSFC and EOC are mutually exclusive .. Hybrid or not .. it is not possible to do both at the same time.

I know I was point out that hybrids don't differ that much in this regard.

% load is not % of peak BSFC ... there are parts of the BSFC that a higher % load is LESS energy efficient ... look at the BSFC for your ICE... or you can also see this in the BSFC I already posted.

The goal is for highest average ICE operating efficiency ... not highest average load.

I know, but with a 5-6 speed manual I have little trouble staying on that BSFC island and then it's just a matter of watching load. Manual Insignts again would be similar in this regard, but the hybrid could still artificially add/reduce load, which the ICE can't.

Got a BSFC for that ICE ??
For me ... That's the important data... as far as weather such a swap would be a MPG pro or con.

Sadly no BSFC graph can be found, this would help me a lot as I don't drive the car enough to reach experimental conclusions. On paper the Insight weighed 100kg less than a Fiat 500, and the little Twinair engine block will fit on an A4 sheet of paper. You'd end up at least 150kg lighter than the Fiat, and the CD would go from .36 to .25(?), slightly smaller frontal area too. Teamed with suitable gearing, I can't imagine why that combo wouldn't beat the original Fiat engine donor by some margin. It would actually accelerate better than the Insight too, so theoretically, you could downsize the engine further.

[ksa8907]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Doesn't Old Mech have a patent on a hydraulic hybrid? I'd really like to see an efficient way to store mechanical energy so that the engine could be pulsed while the vehicle speed remains constant.

Sure, pulse and glide takes much of the advantage away from hybrids, but how many people would tolerate their speed constantly fluctuating 10 mph or more? I certainly don't, and that's why a hybrid makes sense for me. Perhaps a non-electric hybrid would make even more sense. Converting mechanical energy into electrical, then into chemical, and then back into electrical and then back to mechanical is a silly process.

One of my classmates is building a hydraulicly assisted wheelchair. I believe somebody at university of michigan made a hydraulic assisted bicycle.

Not exactly the same, but the concept is there. His budget is $3,000 though, so hold onto your hat when it comes to parts.