Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

I've always thought if people were serious about this concept they would advocate a total energy usage cap per person. Not carbon offset paying for your sin nonsense but an actual per person energy usage cap. It would take into account their home, their transportation, their recreation, etc. Who pollutes more a prius driver driving 100 miles a day living in a 3000 square ft home in the suburbs taking vacations across the country on jets or somebody like me driving whatever 6 miles a day and living in a 1500 sq ft home who drives 100 miles up to the lake a few times a year?
The problem is whenever the government offers involved they will put in loopholes for the rich, and the poor won't really be effected, so the burden will fall on the average Joe.

This suggests an overall problem with the economy. A person's monetary "value" has little to do with their net impact on the world.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

But what will you pay extra in taxes in the future, when they have to tax everyone to clean up the pollution left behind by all those fossil fuel burning cars? Burning less fuel isn't just about saving the cost of filling the tank.

Instead of another tax on fossil fuels, why not lowering the taxes for pure ethanol (either E100 or the E96h we use in Brazil), biodiesel, vegetable oils and biomethane? In Brazil, the higher demand for ethanol due to the lower taxes in the ProÁlcool years had a positive effect as it leaded to and increasement in the productivity per hectare in the sugarcane plantations...

[user removed]

I just recieved an email from the man who purchased my 02 Insight, which I drove 35k miles and had almost as much warranty work, as the car was worth, done to it. He bought it 4.5 years ago.

He thanked me for selling him such a nice car and he had no problems with anything unexpected. He commutes about 35 miles to work each way and has averaged 60 MPG, slightly less that I did when I owned it but I did not have to commute in the traffic you can get around here.

I was glad to hear how much he enjoyed the car and that he was kind enough to let me know that.

Even with no issues whatsoever he still had about 5 cents a mile in depreciation and with the average fuel economy almost twice the Sentra, he would still be above the 8cents a mile currently calculated for the Sentra.

That does not include any maintenance, tires, taxes, insurance or registration fees.


regards
mech

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

That does not include any maintenance, tires, taxes, insurance or registration fees.

Which are going to be pretty much the same regardless of the car, no? At least cars of roughly similar type. I know my insurance was a few bucks less for the Insight than my previous Honda CRX, taxes and registration about the same. (Of course YMMV on this depending on state &c.)

[user removed]

Hybrids may make sense to many, but they certainly are not the only route to low total cost of ownership, especially important to those who choose-need to focus their financial resources elsewhere.

I would seriously look at an Insight, but prefer my project in my garage, which could end up being gas, electric, or a combination of either-both.

I find it somewhat interesting that the hybrid postions are almost universally supported by 1st gen Insight examples and even with that minuscule percentage of the world (17k versus several hundred million) vehicle population the CVT versions are not considered viable.

And the rebuilt-recycled battery packs aren't lasting nearly as long as the originals. Weren't they supposed to last 30 years. Makes my $28 pick and pull battery seem like
chicken feed.

regards
mech

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

And the rebuilt-recycled battery packs aren't lasting nearly as long as the originals. Weren't they supposed to last 30 years.

30 years is a very long time for a battery pack ... especially with over 15C Discharge rates and over 7C charge rates in all the various hot and cold climates .. with a fairly minimal BMS... That's a fairly rare / difficult achievement... for anybody.

AFAIK the OEM NiMH were originally intended for a MTBF of ~8 years ... under the expected HEV operating conditions ... the later extensions for CARB , law suits , etc ... were not part of the engineering design.

Battery pack rebuilds will only be as good as the rebuild itself ... no straw to gold here ... The better quality the testing and rebuild process the better quality and durability of the finished rebuilt pack....just like rebuilding anything else with re-used materials.

If you don't want to 're-use' the old batteries there are numerous options for new batteries ... Bumble Batteries ... make a A123 20Ah LiFePO4 battery ... etc ... etc.

Or ... don't ... Thankfully .. the Gen1 is fairly unique as HEVs go ... it is a fairly simple and very low cost mod to be able to run it without the High voltage HEV battery at all ... or even leaving a failed HEV battery in pace ... It also includes a redundant 12V starter already installed and ready to go... it is fairly easy to mod the car to run as ICE-Only .. if you want to put off fixing the HEV system.

Of course the other option ... is to not look for a 100% condition Gen1 ... but instead look for a good 'shell' ... and use that as a good base to build your own custom project DIY car ... The Aluminum construction will save you weight , and the base starts off with fairly good aerodynamics.

[Xist]

We’ve seen a lot of Gen1 Prius battery failures; I’d guess we’ve seen over 100 at this point. That may seem like a lot, but it’s a drop in the bucket when compared with other types of expensive repairs. We’re in Berkeley, so we have a lot of Gen1s still coming in and we’re still seeing at least one bad battery per month. At first most of the batteries were covered under warranty, but it has been 12 years since the last 2003 was sold, so none are covered anymore.

Predictive battery failure analysis for the Prius Hybrid

Hybrid batteries do fail. They even fail under warranty. Yes, they are replaced for free, although that is still an inconvenience, but while they might last hundreds of thousands of miles, they might not survive the warranty.


This is reportedly the oldest woman alive. The Mexican government says that she is 127, but she lost her birth certificate forty years ago.
Mexican woman becomes world's 'oldest person' - but lost her only proof 40 years ago - Telegraph

I lost my birth certificate and got a replacement. She cannot?

So, everyone, or at least most people live to be 127, right?

Am I being absurd?

Does one or a handful of Prii lasting for crazy miles on the same traction battery indicate the one you saw on Craigslist will, too?

According to the Driving Sports blog only 306 Prius batteries had failed as of 6/09, out of 750,000 installed.

Otis Regrets… or Not › Early Prius owners get screwed on battery warranty
Unfortunately, that links to a dead article.

The Prius family reached global cumulative sales of 4.8 million units by September 2014,

Toyota Prius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the same failure percentage continued until September 2,014, the failed batteries would be about two thousand.

I am not claiming they fail often or as prone to dying as soon as they are off of warranty like everything else, I just do not think that considering them ouroboros is accurate.

If you want a Prius, fine, I just think that you should start saving up for a battery once the warranty ends. Hey, earn some money off of it while you can. It might make a great down payment.

[RedDevil]

Hey ho. If a few thousand Prii (out of 4.8 million) needed new hybrid batteries that is a failure rate of 0.04 %.
It may well be the most reliable component of the whole car!

If a new battery is, say, $3000 the average owner will have to spend 0.04 % of that on replacing batteries.
That is $1.20.
If it was not covered by warranty anyway.
It is a risk - but a very small one.

Chances are the hybrid system will save you one or two brake pad renewals.
The 99,96% of Prius owners that will not have to change the battery all benefit from that.

[nimblemotors]

Does one or a handful of Prii lasting for crazy miles on the same traction battery indicate the one you saw on Craigslist will, too?

No, but it does say they CAN. Taxi Cabs go 300k, that is not just a 'handful'. In any case, I don't care much about how long the OEM battery lasts, what is most important to me, is the transaxle/motors will last hundreds of thousands of miles, because that is what I'm using in the Indy One

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xist

Hybrid batteries do fail. They even fail under warranty. Yes, they are replaced for free, although that is still an inconvenience, but while they might last hundreds of thousands of miles, they might not survive the warranty.

Likewise, engines fail, transmissions fail, other expensive parts fail. Sometimes under warranty, sometimes later. So is this a reason not to own a car?

I think what matters is the average cost of repair over useful lifetime. If (just making up some numbers here) the Prius averages one battery failure and one engine/transmission failure per million miles, and a VW diesel averages five engine/transmission failures in the same period, then assuming the repair cost is the same, which is cheaper overall?

Then add the fact that (at least in the Insight) battery replacement is WAY simpler than engine/transmission, and used batteries are available at $500 or so from salvage yards (last I checked), seems like the hybrid might be significantly cheaper.