Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[user removed]

I remember riding in a taxi cab in Bermuda, one of those old square Toyota Vans, but this one had a diesel engine. Over a million miles on that one, all short haul with a speed limit of 35 KPH.

James don't wait too long on that transmission noise. I've done alot of Nissans and when the bearing starts to come apart the damage can get severe quickly.

Get it up to 30 mph, push the clutch in and kill the engine, keeping the clutch depressed.
As you slow down downshift to lower gears. If there is a bearing going bad in the tranny you will hear it and without the engine running you have eliminated most other noise sources except wheel bearings.

regards
mech

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

I think you can see from the used prices the hurdles faced by 10+ year old hybrid purchasers. Once the 8-10 year battery warranty expires, the used car value drops to or below that of a non hybrid but otherwise similar vehicle.

That may be the case for some makes.

But I've been watching regional prices on older Toyota hybrids (Priuses) for about 6 months, and that statement doesn't apply. There are no deals unless the car has collision damage, excessively high miles, or existing battery problems.

Hondas on the other hand... Civic hybrid prices aren't holding up. (Still, I wouldn't want one anyway.)

[user removed]

Remember, here rust is not an issue. Plenty of 2004 Prii with 150k miles in the sub $5500 range, with miles over 200k, down around $3500-4000. 1st gens with bad battery $1500, some with less than 150k miles.

Civic hybrids have known the known cvt issues. I have seen then with 235k on the cvt but might have had repairs done, the majority of those for sale here older than 2004 have dead hybrid batteries.

Lots of military deployments here with cars sitting for several months to a year probably a factor in the number of dead batteries.

Check CL Norfolk Va under cars for sale by owner, subtitle hybrid to see prices, 04 and 05 Prii priced above 6k don't seem to sell, just sit there listed for months to years in some cases.

When I looked at the 2004 Prius when it first came out, I checked the price of a replacement electric motor and battery, was quoted 6k for each. Remember those were new, not rebuilt prices, since there was no core supply for rebuilds.
If you can even get a new battery for the same model today, the price would probably be the same or higher, so cheaper when older tech does not seem to apply in this case.

regards
mech

[user removed]

Rebuilt used to mean remanufactured to new specs. Calling a 10 year old battery pack rebuilt does not have the same meaning as a rebuilt engine or transmission, or any other part like alternators or starters, which is why no one matches the original warranty on "rebuilt" battery packs as every one of them would fail under those warranty terms.

regards
mech

[P-hack]

the thing is the batteries and electronics do last. And thus the cars in the yard are collision damage. People don't ever (practically speaking) need to rebuild/replace an inverter, and the batteries don't fail hard, they just lose some capacity with time. So you have an abundance of used parts, and really the only market is the diy market, which isn't huge, so parts wise the costs should keep getting better for the DIY'er as supply is much greater than demand.

But as resale vs battery life, that is mostly political. There isn't really anything to it. Deciding to renew vs repair vs just drive it is a simple matter of time/cost analysis vs mpg recovery. It still runs fine with a low capacity battery. And again, getting to the battery (on a prius anyway) is fairly easy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwy1tcVHJ_g

Here is one with an 18 month warranty for $850! 2004 2009 Toyota Prius Hybrid Battery Complete w HV Computer 18 Month Warrnaty | eBay

Admittedly not everyone is up for replacing a battery let alone identifying and replacing a bad cell ($30 repair), but it isn't even a dirty job. And lots of good parts, and not seeing a lot of reports of hard failures. The apprehension is largely because of the "unknowns", but look into it (beyond resale apprehension) and learn something about electronics, and you will see it is the least troubling aspect of it all.

The other thing to consider is battery technology is constantly advancing, and really it is just volts and amps and capacity. It isn't very far fetched at all to imagine upgrading your old hybrid battery in the future cost effectively.

edit: that $850 battery comes with FREE installation, so really, no excuse for excessively low resale based on battery speculation.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

When I looked at the 2004 Prius when it first came out, I checked the price of a replacement electric motor and battery, was quoted 6k for each. Remember those were new, not rebuilt prices, since there was no core supply for rebuilds.
If you can even get a new battery for the same model today, the price would probably be the same or higher, so cheaper when older tech does not seem to apply in this case.

You're forgetting (as indeed I had) all those rusting-out non-gen1 Insights in the northeast, which should provide the rest of us with a plentiful supply of spares as their bodies fall off perfectly serviceable batteries & other powertrain components.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Rebuilt used to mean remanufactured to new specs.

Ahh the good old days.

They won't even do that (match new spec and new warranty) with a re-manufactured ICE , or transmission , etc ... today... Not a HEV or Battery specific issue ... just a change in the acceptable 'standard' for quality.

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Calling a 10 year old battery pack rebuilt does not have the same meaning as a rebuilt engine or transmission, or any other part like alternators or starters,

My experience is that people who rebuild all those other items usually only offer a 1 year warranty on the rebuild ... occasionally you'll find a 3 year (limited miles) warranty on those other rebuilds ... but you won't find one (anymore AFAIK) ... that will match the OEM new spec warranty.

There are HEV battery rebuilds that offer comparable warranties to what those other rebuild companies (of transmissions offer) ... of example ... BubbleBeeBattery offers a rebuild with better than New OEM specs .. and a 3 year unlimited mileage (no questions asked) warranty on their battery rebuilds ... that's a better warranty than many transmission rebuild companies.

I don't know of any transmission rebuild companies offering 10 years or more for a warranty on a rebuild.

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

which is why no one matches the original warranty on "rebuilt" battery packs as every one of them would fail under those warranty terms.

See above .. it isn't just the battery pack .. it's all those other items too.

[user removed]

Jasper is 3 years 100k miles on engines and transmissions and includes labor. Longer miles than almost every OEM. Your hybrid has numerous other components that conventional vehicles do not have to wear out or break.

Does the internet help finding parts for very rare cars? Absolutely. It also means those who have the parts charge more for them due to increased demand. Read the fineprint on used electrical part purchases very very carefuly and look out for things like, no returns, or instore credit only.

As far as swapping out another engine in a shell, good luck with extinguishing the CEL and battery failure lights. Around here they
do not do emissions testing but if either of those lights is totally inop or continuously illuminated then it's a failed inspection.

I remember one Z car from over 30 years ago that was rejected when the Chevy V8 was installed without the factory air injection system and air pump. Seen a pickup driver ticketed by a trooper for illegal dual exhausts added after manufacture.


regards
mech

[user removed]

Interesting read.

Frequently Asked Questions | The Hybrid Shop

regards
mech

[Ecky]

In most cases, battery conditioning can revitalize a Nickel-Metal Hydride battery pack for a fraction of the cost of a new replacement battery at the dealer, allowing a vehicle owner to continue to use their existing battery, while restoring vehicle performance and gas mileage. Only The Hybrid Shop has this proprietary technology, and it isn’t something that can be improvised or attempted at home without the proper training and equipment.

I built a grid charger with ~$20 in parts from eBay and radioshack. Some over at Insight Central use a small light bulb to discharge a pack before a grid charge to improve results.

If performed as part of a vehicle’s preventive maintenance regimen every 4-7 years (or 60,000 to 100,000 miles for most drivers), it is entirely possible that a hybrid vehicle’s NiMH traction battery could outlast the vehicle itself and would never need to be replaced. This not only saves thousands of dollars and keeps the car running at peak performance and fuel efficiency, it also keeps hard-to-recycle battery packs out of the waste stream and prevents wasting precious natural resources to construct unneeded new battery packs.