Elegant Forced Auto Stop (Insight)

[3-Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Natalya

...1: I don't know where to find a +5v source, hence the regulator device. If I knew where one was I'd use that instead.....

The connector known as P31 toward the rear of the seat back has at least one 5 volt signal on it. You will have to check the shop manual for this connector since I am at work now. P31 is connected to the module that sits on top of the IMA on the right side when viewed from the rear of the car.

I just saw Sam's post on this. Thanks Sam.

Jim.

[3-Wheeler]

Originally Posted by brucepick

.....If I had a true spoofed autostop like Natalya is attempting to build, it would maintain 13.5V with headlights on - great for night driving.....

The 13.5 V is coming from the IMA battery when the car is at idle, and this voltage drain has to later be made up by the IMA putting more charge back into the HV battery at higher rpm's.

If one does the IMA bypass, the idle voltage is about 11.9 V.

Jim.

[3-Wheeler]

Originally Posted by samwichse

Unfortunately I don't have the pages that say what those abbreviations are...

I think IC has a digital copy of the manual where one can find the descriptions. My 2000 Shop Manual has full descriptions.

Jim.

[Ecky]

You're welcome to any of the resources in my InsightTech folder:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...jd5amdITThsb2s

See folder "Honda-Insight-2000-2006", wiring.

On page 58, the wire from the VSS is shown to split to both the ECU and cluster, so you should be able to fool the ECU without causing the speed displayed to change. It is also shown to go to the TCM (presumably in CVT models, as I don't think the MT would have one) on page 36.

The variables that initiate auto-stop seem to vary, to some degree. For instance, sometimes auto-stop doesn't engage until around 12mph, if I haven't gone over perhaps 25mph - that is, I can speed up to ~21, then slow down to 19 again, and auto-stop won't engage. I haven't paid close enough attention to it to understand exactly what's going on. I'm inclined to believe you can solve this with some trial and error.

A related idea came to me while reading this thread; I assume MPG calculations are done in the cluster and are independent of the ECU, so you could send whatever signal you wanted to it and not mess up the gauges. Engine idle speed (for instance when in neutral or changing gears) varies while rolling. Above ~51mph, the engine revs to about 1300-1400rpm and begins charging with 4 bars. It would presumably be possible to initiate (or prevent) this with the same device.

[Natalya]

@Ecky and 3-Wheeler:
Y'alls posts have been super helpful. I didn't know the VSS signal got split before the ECM, which explains the speedometer stuff I was seeing. I have a physical copy of the 2000 Electrical Troubleshooting Manual, but it was a little confusing. However, I did manage to find the P31 connector that 3-Wheeler mentioned. It's referred to as MCM Connector C in the manual. It has four VCC wires, and the connector in the ECM where the VSS is has 2 VCC wires. The manual doesn't specify the voltages but I'll check the ones up front and see what they do and report back here.

[brucepick]

Originally Posted by Baltothewolf

How did you do your kill-switch?

I basically did what was recommend at InsightCentral. I wrote a bit about it but I think I just posted on an existing thread there.

Two key components:
1) Clutch switch hack. It fakes the clutch being depressed. If not activated, the IMA system restarts the engine when it recognizes that you're rolling.
2) Fuel injector kill. This involves getting to the three + wires that power the injectors, under the little plastic cover that protects them.

I patiently figured out how to pop the cover open without destroying it. You sever each of the three wires and insert a relay in the circuit between them. They are all powered + 12V continuously, so you just splice together the three severed + wire ends, and the three other ends that go to the three injectors. Insert a relay between them and there you go.

Easier said than done, of course.

I made one circuit change vs. the procedure given in IC. I didn't like the idea of powering the relay's coil from the 12V injector circuit. I don't know what the coil load is vs. the load presented by the injectors but it certainly isn't exactly the same. So I powered the relay's coil from the 12V battery, via a little fuse.

I didn't tackle putting the switches themselves at the shifter. I mounted them in the pop out locations left of the steering wheel, near the storage bin. Not quite as convenient as the shifter location but it was easier for me to do - and looks very clean.

[Ecky]

It's not necessary to use 3 relays, as it's a shared ground.

[brucepick]

Originally Posted by Natalya

...
2: When the switch is set to the right, everything works normally, car drives along reading the correct speed. When the switch is set to the left it is SUPPOSED to get a signal from the 555 timer of a square wave and the VSS is cut out of the equation.

Apparently that's not the case.

Observed behaviour when I press the switch to the left is that the car's speedometer still works normally, but auto-stop will never happen. I think the ECM is somehow getting a combined signal at the wrong voltage or something from the VSS and the 555 timer and to play it safe it won't auto stop. I'm absolutely baffled as to how the VSS signal is going through an open switch into the ECM. Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on here?

Natalya,

Great project. Here's what I think about the speedometer issue:

I think you've connected to the wrong pin/wire at the speedometer, or maybe at your switch.

Possibly your switch has quite a few terminals on it (based on my recent experience buying switches for my fuel injector cutoff) - and just maybe you've got the RIGHT wires at the speedo sensor, but didn't connect to the right ones on the switch. I suspect you're using a SPDT or maybe a DPDT. Either way, I found the pins needed were NOT where I expected them to be. Test the function of the different pin combinations with a multitester or similar.

Speedometer: I expect there are three pins at the speedometer. I wired my MPGuino mpg calculator to my '97 Civic. It needed a speedometer connection, so I had to learn what was what. At home, I might still have my color coding notes for the speedo sensor. I would not be surprised if the Insight sensor has the same coding. Honda seems to like to keep their color coding the same. I think some people wired theirs at the computer, but I connected mine at the speedometer sensor on the transmission.

Anyway, my recollection is there are three speedometer pins. One is +, maybe only 5 or 10V instead of 12V. I think one is ground and the third one is the output signal, which is the one you need to fake. I expect the output goes to the computer, not to the speedometer. I expect the speedometer is provided a signal from the computer.

[brucepick]

Hmmm.

I see one additional requirement in the AutoStop-on-demand concept.

You need to fool the system into thinking the car is stopped (or moving very slowly) to activate AutoStop. BUT - you also want to see your speed on the speedometer once the engine is killed. And you want the odometer to count up miles, so you can see your improved fuel economy.

I don't know how to do both, at the same time.

I think the solution would be to reprogram the computer. But I have now idea how.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by brucepick

Hmmm.

I see one additional requirement in the AutoStop-on-demand concept.

You need to fool the system into thinking the car is stopped (or moving very slowly) to activate AutoStop. BUT - you also want to see your speed on the speedometer once the engine is killed. And you want the odometer to count up miles, so you can see your improved fuel economy.

I don't know how to do both, at the same time.

I think the solution would be to reprogram the computer. But I have now idea how.

I suspect the computer is responsible for causing auto-stop, while the cluster displays MPH, counts miles, and keeps track of fuel economy independently. Intercepting the VSS signal to one hopefully will not disrupt the other.

It may be a useful test to see if auto-stop still works if the cluster is unplugged - there's a data connection between cluster and ECU, AFAIK. I dunno if it checks for parity.