Engineering Explained:Why Tesla's Are Bad at Towing

[freebeard]

I'm convinced the only way they get people to buy EVs currently is they compare the cost of driving an EV in fuel to that of the average car (27mpg) and hope you forget cheaper hybrids also exist. The teslas are nice luxury cars but I'm okay with a cloth econo box and 0-60 in 15 seconds. lol

I think the Tesla autonomous self-driving is less attainable than the Arcimoto robovalet model. Non-crew-rated delivery to the point of use, but then the user is [ultimately] responsible for the actual trip.

It will be less costly than owner-operated vehicles.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hayden55

At a net savings of $156/yr I don't see anything above a hybrid paying off for quite a while. The msrp on electric cars is too high for most of the 1st world country middle class, so its not going to be a solution for the rest of the world either. I really don't get the holier than thou attitude though. A lot of us on here can only afford to be so green. Most of us join to save money.

EVs come with a $7500 federal tax credit and an additional $2500 rebate in my state. A $10K discount pretty much erases the additional MSRP of an EV vs a hybrid.

I don't buy new but when shopping for used vehicle in November I could buy an EV for the same price as a hybrid. My 2017 Bolt EV Premier was $24K out the door with 33K miles on the ODO. A 2017 Prius with similar mileage is priced similar but a bit higher. The absolute cheapest 2017 Prius listed on Car Guru within 100 miles of me is $21K with 91K miles on the ODO.

Originally Posted by hayden55

I'm convinced the only way they get people to buy EVs currently is they compare the cost of driving an EV in fuel to that of the average car (27mpg) and hope you forget cheaper hybrids also exist. The teslas are nice luxury cars but I'm okay with a cloth econo box and 0-60 in 15 seconds. lol

I compare EV running cost to my 2005 and 2009 Prius.

Fuel:

• The 2005 averaged 6.5 cents per mile for fuel and the 2009 averaged 6.7 cents per mile.
• My 2016 Spark EV would have cost 2.9 cents per mile if I couldn't charge for free at work.
• The Bolt is averaging 4.1 cents per mile for electricity but this is also winter and about 30% of the electricity usage is to run the heater.

Maintenance:

• The Prii averaged 2 cents per mile for maintenance.
• The Spark EV was 0.7 cents per mile for maintenance. That was me replacing the stock tires after 6K miles because they were dangerously bad.
• Bolt - none to date. The only scheduled maintenance is the cabin air filter, brake fluid every 3 years, and coolant at 120K miles

Originally Posted by hayden55

but I'm okay with a cloth econo box and 0-60 in 15 seconds. lol

I'm not when I can get 0.60 in 6.5 seconds, leather, and every other option available for the same price. I'm a big fan of the 360 degree cameras in the Bolt - they are fantastic for parallel parking.

[hayden55]

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml
This is true. I almost forgot about the rebates since our state doesn't have any special ones and Tesla and Chevy don't qualify for federal rebates anymore. I really am an econ at heart so I like my cheap models so thrills probably need to be factored individually. Interesting enough it was hard to find cheap car EVs instead of huge SUV EVs and luxury models. Maybe the better question is if you should buy a plug in hybrid or an EV. After all I do actually do a lot of 250 mi+ trips one way and charging is required.
Of the poor boy models (ones that cost less than 35k)(that I consider reliable):
*Had to leave the bolt out because of the fire and they don't qualify for fed rebate.
15000 miles per year, using the Fed websites 12.64c/kWh and $3.36/gallon, $100 reg Hybrid, $200 reg EV. Also, they assume plug ins are 50/50 use on gas an e.
Prius Prime 24.8k (after credit): $810
133mpge : 54mpg
Hyundai Ioniq Plug In 23.3k (after credit): $850
119mpge : 52mpg
Hyundai Ioniq EV 26.8k (after credit): $680
133mpge
Kia Niro EV 33.7k (after credit): $770
112mpge
Kia Niro Plug In 26.3k (after credit): $950
105mpge : 46 mpg
Nissan Leaf S Plus 62kWh 25.9k (after credit): $790
108mpge
Looks like the best EV is $130 cheaper to drive per year with an extra initial cost of only $2000. Ignoring depreciation and reliability since they are both pretty good cars and will be new enough for the first owner to not need anything it will still probably take a while to pay off the EV addition.
If I use the same numbers but $2.75/gal and 13.5c/kWh the delta goes to $710 and $740.
Looks like if they come out with a Prius Prime that had a $7500 rebate eligible battery capacity and no more that would be the golden ticket. Still don’t see a pure EV as the way to go as when gas was 1.60 here a year ago electricity was also 8.0c/kWh so the prices seem tied together. Unless I just wanted a fun luxury car with no care for cost then Tesla is a good choice.

Anyways back to towing.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by hayden55

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml
This is true. I almost forgot about the rebates since our state doesn't have any special ones and Tesla and Chevy don't qualify for federal rebates anymore. I really am an econ at heart so I like my cheap models so thrills probably need to be factored individually. Interesting enough it was hard to find cheap car EVs instead of huge SUV EVs and luxury models. Maybe the better question is if you should buy a plug in hybrid or an EV. After all I do actually do a lot of 250 mi+ trips one way and charging is required.
Of the poor boy models (ones that cost less than 35k)(that I consider reliable):
*Had to leave the bolt out because of the fire and they don't qualify for fed rebate.
15000 miles per year, using the Fed websites 12.64c/kWh and $3.36/gallon, $100 reg Hybrid, $200 reg EV. Also, they assume plug ins are 50/50 use on gas an e.
Prius Prime 24.8k (after credit): $810
133mpge : 54mpg
Hyundai Ioniq Plug In 23.3k (after credit): $850
119mpge : 52mpg
Hyundai Ioniq EV 26.8k (after credit): $680
133mpge
Kia Niro EV 33.7k (after credit): $770
112mpge
Kia Niro Plug In 26.3k (after credit): $950
105mpge : 46 mpg
Nissan Leaf S Plus 62kWh 25.9k (after credit): $790
108mpge
Looks like the best EV is $130 cheaper to drive per year with an extra initial cost of only $2000. Ignoring depreciation and reliability since they are both pretty good cars and will be new enough for the first owner to not need anything it will still probably take a while to pay off the EV addition.
If I use the same numbers but $2.75/gal and 13.5c/kWh the delta goes to $710 and $740.
Looks like if they come out with a Prius Prime that had a $7500 rebate eligible battery capacity and no more that would be the golden ticket. Still don’t see a pure EV as the way to go as when gas was 1.60 here a year ago electricity was also 8.0c/kWh so the prices seem tied together. Unless I just wanted a fun luxury car with no care for cost then Tesla is a good choice.

Anyways back to towing.

I'm sure the base Rav 4 prime would be the best cost per mile over 1-3 years if you could find and purchase one for MSRP. It certainly won't even lose $7500 in value the first 1 or 2 years, probably not even in the first 4 years.

[hayden55]

That or damn the F150 Lightning pro is 34k after rebate and has 400hp and 230 miles of range. Its 100% gonna be like the $59,000 c8 corvette though. Chevy never sold a single one for that price.

[thingstodo]

Originally Posted by hayden55

That or damn the F150 Lightning pro is 34k after rebate and has 400hp and 230 miles of range. Its 100% gonna be like the $59,000 c8 corvette though. Chevy never sold a single one for that price.

The F150 Pro is aimed at fleets. Fleets appear to be very cost sensitive. If the total cost of ownership is lower over the life of the vehicle ... fleets will buy them.

Fleet buyers have good lawyers. Whatever price is posted ... not sure if that will be very close to 34K .. I think Ford will have to stick with it. Or they will be stuck in court instead of selling EVs

[redpoint5]

Nobody is held to any particular price until they have entered into contract. Besides that, the stealership model allows independently owned car lots to gobble up whatever free money is on the table. In other words, whatever the difference between their cost and the market value is, they can charge.

The nice thing about direct to consumer is you don't have to wonder if someone else got a better deal than you. Everyone buying at the same time as you is paying the same price.

There's huge demand for the F150 Lightning (and all new vehicles), so most people won't be paying MSRP; they'll be paying significantly more. It's not the right time to be buying vehicles.

[hayden55]

Thats true and I'm glad to hear that. Dealerships have really just been bullying buyers now at this point. Only spec'ing premium models for new sales, not allowing price negotiation etc. But yes its going to be a tough sell. I see that they published an article saying the general public now cannot afford the price of the average USED car now (20% of gross) at $29,000. Although Chevy is pissed they now have to sell without the $7500 tax credit against Ford and others and are trying to get the $12,500 EV tax credit passed to replace it. We will see.

https://www.newsweek.com/over-half-a...s-soar-1664941

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Yc...=LouisRossmann

[redpoint5]

The EV tax credit needs to go away immediately. It does more harm towards accelerating the adoption of EVs, and is a regressive subsidy that benefits the wealthy at the expense of all taxpayers.

Subsidizing stuff when inflation and deficit spending is through the roof during a time when supply is constrained is layers upon layers of idiocy, recognizable to anyone that has an elementary grasp of economics. It's just free money handouts to large auto manufacturers, most of which are foreign owned. I'd have to think long and hard to come up with something dumber.

[Hersbird]

I have a Lighting reservation and plan on getting the most basic Pro for $41,600 with destination. Heck it has PW, PL, cruise, a 8.4 touchscreen with android auto and CarPlay, AWD, automatic, is a crew cab, has a 2.4 kw inverter onboard. I priced a regular F150 crew cab 4wd with the worst v6 and no other options and its $1500 more than the Lightning without 1/2 those adds. I plan on paying MSRP. The issue is the $7500 rebate will be gone before the first Pros get built. The Mach E and early higher trim Lightnings is going to finish off Fords credits in 2022. The Pro won't start production until the end of 2022. Now maybe there is a 1/2 rebate phase out. Does anybody remember the specifics? If it goes a whole year no matter the volume Ford could sell more during the "phase out" than they did during the actual rebate assuming their production is full ramped on the Lighting and Mach E.