EPA Moves To Cut Sulfur In Gasoline

[Coroner]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...obviously, it was a retorical question without an expected rational answer.

When they believe they have taken it all! Just so they can be the perceived hero and extract blood to get it back....But don't get me started!

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...the "hidden" answer is that the EPA mandate affects BOTH the gasoline refineries AND the automobile manufacturers...

Actually, for the automakers, it's a good deal. You might remember Volkswagen just uses the 2.5L 5-banger in some of its US-spec models because it's supposed to deal better with the higher sulfur amounts of the gasoline in America than those 1.6L and 2.0L FSI do.

[gone-ot]

Regardless of what they would LIKE you to believe, but Volkswagen isn't the ONLY automobile manufacturer in the world, or USA.

GM has to import a FIAT-designed 2.0LT diesel for the 2014 Cruze because none of the current european (GM-Opel) 2.0LT diesels meet the current EPA requirements, much LESS the newer 2017 limits.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...the "hidden" answer is that the EPA mandate affects BOTH the gasoline refineries AND the automobile manufacturers...

And so? I'm sure you've been around long enough to know that the automakers (especially the US ones!) ALWAYS scream and whine about how they can't possibly meet emissions (or fuel economy standards). Then they spend a few years foisting crap on the public (remember e.g. smog pumps). When/if they discover that their whining doesn't have any effect (and the foreign automakers are cleaning their clock), they finally straighten up and do things halfway right - then the cycle starts all over again.

In other news, I see that Tesla's 1st quarter sales of the Model S have exceeded their target. Wonder why...

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...question is, however, WHEN does the EPA (if ever?) consider consequences to the consumer? At what point does "diminishing returns" become acceptable--or, bluntly--when does the government LEAVE people alone? When is enough, ENOUGH?

I applaud the efforts. The required changes are mainly to older refineries. Many already contain low enough levels of sulfur in the gasoline they produce. This move is mainly to bring all refineries to the same level.

Gasoline and diesel engines of today are far cleaner than just 20 years ago. Basins such as Los Angeles and Denver are far cleaner for these efforts. The billions spent in cleaner fuels and vehicles is offset by the billions saved in healthcare.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Coroner

When they believe they have taken it all! Just so they can be the perceived hero and extract blood to get it back....But don't get me started!

. . . when industry fails to regulate itself?

Your impassioned venting may be right from your perspective, but utterly wrong from the viewpoint of public health.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

. . . when industry fails to regulate itself?

Your impassioned venting may be right from your perspective, but utterly wrong from the viewpoint of public health.

...sorry, but California's problems are NOT always the problems of others, regardless of CARB or EPA; they simply "strong-arm" and financially "saddle" EVERYBODY because they can.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...sorry, but California's problems are NOT always the problems of others, regardless of CARB or EPA; they simply "strong-arm" and financially "saddle" EVERYBODY because they can.

Think of riding the bus to school. That is found in most ALL our school districts. The most vulnerable of our population is on those buses - growing children with a LIFETIME to go. Now you want to place them on a bus that spews particulate matter at high rates - particulate matter that has been connected with all sorts of long and short term problems.

Why don't we go back to regional fuel and emission standards like we had a few years ago? That would make it FAIR? Correct?

Except vehicles move. And so does the pollution.

I live on the border of Mexico in the beautiful city of San Diego. We adhere to the stringent regs of the EPA and CARB. Mexico doesn't. Consequently, we live with bad air days depending on the prevailing winds. We live with Mexican registered trucks driving our roadways belching pollutants. We deal with the occasional sewage on our beaches because of tides that have shifted for the day.

I guarantee this measure will not effect you in any significant fiscal way - in the immediate. But over the lives of people who succumb to pollution health effects, the costs can be enormous. China is finding this out. They are going to have to pay a vast healthcare cost over the next couple generations.

The majority of people are much happier with our cleaner air and water. The bellicose rants of the NIMBY population has gradually given way to the understanding of the individual's responsibility to society as a whole.

[gone-ot]

...sorry, but those "insignificant" costs due to CARB and/or EPA have affected every car I've bought, and I do not feel that I should be MADE to pay for the problems of others, especially when I don't even live in their states. NIMBY is part territorial and part parochial...

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...sorry, but those "insignificant" costs due to CARB and/or EPA have affected every car I've bought, and I do not feel that I should be MADE to pay for the problems of others, especially when I don't even live in their states. NIMBY is part territorial and part parochial...

Let's go back to 1960's shall we?. No emission controls at all. At least where you live out in Tucson. Now, when trucks and rail transport cross into other states . . . How about your personal vehicles? Why don't we make it simple. Why don't you make it law that you breath the emissions out of your personal vehicles tailpipe, and I'll breath the emissions out of mine. Except that is impossible isn't it? The air in Tucson affects the air quality EVERYWHERE! If 300 million Americans believed as you, we would live in a cesspool of a continent. Multiply that by 7 billion people and where will that leave us in a short time?

Name ONE singular 50 state emission requirement that has been such an awful burden to you? Digital control of fuel, timing, power transfer, catalytic efficiency . . . these seem more like performance advances. Or do you want to go back to points and carburetors? I've struggled with Holley Double pumpers and Carter Thermo Quads. I'll take digital MPI and OBD2 any day.

I live in San Diego and run a business in the AQMD controlled LA basin . Everything is controlled down to what comes out of an aerosol can. Off road and on road diesels, lawn care equipment, barbeque fluid . . . and on and on. Draconian measures that are needed because of our unique situation as the "sunshine fishbowl". Every little bit of pollution is trapped and magnified. These measures are not all to be foisted on your area. To say so or even imply as such is disingenuous and exaggerated theater.

Measurable amounts of air pollution now cross the pacific rim to our shores. "No man is an island," is a saying that is ever more true today than ever before. Many of your emission problems are my problems when measured as a whole in the context of the biosphere that is our earth.