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Old 12-17-2019, 12:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I'm in fly over country and I make it with with none other than a 24kwh leaf and associated pathetic range.
You and 3500 other people in New Mexico have taken the “plug in” plunge.
(annual sales are in the hundreds there BEVs are not separated from PHEV)
Compared to the 683,000 registrations of ICEs in the state.

I don’t think it’s range or cost or tax credits or even acceptance holding flyover folks back but misconceptions.
I get to read more and more messages like the one below

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Old 12-17-2019, 12:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Why should I have to pay 10 years of gas tax on my car?
But potentially millions of “rich” $64,000 a year folks get a $7500 a car payoff due to the bill in the republican senate?


Why should a doctors derelict rice farm he uses for hunting land get him an annual $50,000 government payoff while a small dairy farm pays tax penalties ?


Since the payoff is guaranteed anyway shouldn’t it be used for its intended purpose, instead of in a completely ineffective way in an area that won’t use or need it?
What do you mean by the payoff being guaranteed? Any subsidy can be revoked at any time, and just because we made a mistake earlier subsidizing something doesn't mean we need to double down on our mistakes. Even better would be to cut the losses by eliminating the subsidies.

I'm a huge fan of EVs, which is why I'm completely against subsidies for them. It would be like being a Usain Bolt fan, but insisting he start every race with a 10ft head start on everyone else. If something is better, then it's better and needs no "help". Further, if we're going to take taxpayer money, the benefit needs to be quantified along with the cost. So, how many extra EVs do we have on the road due to the subsidy, and how many seconds did it forestall global warming? I guarantee that study wasn't done, because this is about politics, not about effectiveness.

Fire all the politicians and give then a couple nights in jail to think about what they've done. There will be some good ones in there, but they are guilty by association.

Your point about $7,500 tax benefit to the wealthy is exactly the kind of corruption I'm talking about. While I'm undecided on progressive taxation, I'm certainly firmly against regressive tax policy, and this is the very definition of regressive; a benefit only those with $7,500 in tax liability who are buying a new expensive car can take advantage of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Increasing the 200,000 cap on EV tax credits didn't make it into the omnibus bill.
Omnibus bill; another thing that should be illegal. Even suggesting 1 more thing be added to a bill should earn a politician a night in jail.

The seeds of the undoing of the United States are planted, and it will be a long slow decline.
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Old 12-17-2019, 03:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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They can turn a subsidy into a penalty just like that.
Both sides do it.
Some retarded ev tax bill will likely be drafted early next year for new Mexico.
I will be paying 20,000 to 30,000 miles worth of fuel road tax each year if it passes.
The first time gm killed the electric car. This time the states will do it, at least all the ones not trying to force people to buy electric.

It still appears electrics and plug in hybrids are toys for mostly upper middle class and higher.
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Old 12-17-2019, 04:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
They can turn a subsidy into a penalty just like that.
Both sides do it.
Some retarded ev tax bill will likely be drafted early next year for new Mexico.
I will be paying 20,000 to 30,000 miles worth of fuel road tax each year if it passes.
The first time gm killed the electric car. This time the states will do it, at least all the ones not trying to force people to buy electric.

It still appears electrics and plug in hybrids are toys for mostly upper middle class and higher.
Yes, I blame all politicians and the citizens who elect them. Unfortunately we're stupid creatures that happily trade freedom for promises of "free" stuff. Most successful politicians realize this and leverage it for their political gain.

GM didn't kill the electric car; they pioneered it. The (lack of) economics killed it. You can't blame someone for making something unprofitable, and then being unwilling to continue selling it at a loss.

It's not just "Republican" states that tax EVs, often with higher registration fees. Oregon is pro-EV, progressive, and has implemented higher registration fees for EVs and cars that are more fuel efficient.

As I've been saying, infrastructure should be budgeted just like everything else; not funded by gasoline taxes. If the state wants to impose a "sin" tax on it, fine, but I don't see why something as necessary as infrastructure should be funded differently than all the other things that are less necessary.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It's not just "Republican" states that tax EVs, often with higher registration fees. Oregon is pro-EV, progressive, and has implemented higher registration fees for EVs and cars that are more fuel efficient.
Oregon did add a graduated scale to their 2 year registration fee

$122 for vehicles rated 0-19 mpg
$132 for vehicles rated 20-29 mpg
$152 for vehicles rated 40 or more.

HOWEVER, that isn't the only option. People that enroll in OReGO* only pay $86 registration. The $86 registration fee is Oregon's carrot to get people to volunteer sign up for OReGO.

*OReGO is Oregon's fee per mile program that charges $0.017 per mile instead of gasoline taxes. I've been enrolled since it was a limited pilot program.
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Old 12-18-2019, 01:13 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
HOWEVER, that isn't the only option. People that enroll in OReGO* only pay $86 registration. The $86 registration fee is Oregon's carrot to get people to volunteer sign up for OReGO.

*OReGO is Oregon's fee per mile program that charges $0.017 per mile instead of gasoline taxes. I've been enrolled since it was a limited pilot program.


Interesting. The program rewards those with worse fuel economy because it refunds taxes paid at the pump. Using the calculator, it said at 30 MPG, I would lose money compared to just paying the taxes at the pump. At 20 MPG, it said I would break even. I'd need to drive something that gets worse than 20 MPG for the program to make sense.
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Old 12-18-2019, 05:12 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Interesting. The program rewards those with worse fuel economy because it refunds taxes paid at the pump. Using the calculator, it said at 30 MPG, I would lose money compared to just paying the taxes at the pump. At 20 MPG, it said I would break even. I'd need to drive something that gets worse than 20 MPG for the program to make sense.

That is one way to look at it. Another way is that everyone that uses roads should help pay for them and people that use them more (drive more) should pay more. Fuel mileage has nothing to do cost to build and maintain roads. A 2.5 ton Model X takes up just as much space as a 2.5 ton Land Cruiser.

Oregon's purpose of going to a fee per mile is to raise more money for transportation and decouple transportation funding from fuel use. It makes sense that most vehicles would pay more under the new system. I see the current bill as a way to smooth the transition. The more people they move voluntarily the better.

The calculator doesn't factor in the reduced registration fee but that is highly dependent on number of miles driven in the 2 year registration period. It could work out well for people that have multiple cars but don't drive them very often.
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Old 12-18-2019, 05:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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That is one way to look at it. Another way is that everyone that uses roads should help pay for them and people that use them more (drive more) should pay more. Fuel mileage has nothing to do cost to build and maintain roads. A 2.5 ton Model X takes

It could work out well for people that have multiple cars but don't drive them very often.
If you can get past the first couple of nonsense paragraphs at the beginning of this diatribe linked to below, to the actual words of the proposal
you will see that the Oregon bill follows the intent verbatim of the following model legislation.
The legislation below has nothing to do with plug ins (which are just the scapegoat) and has everything to do with eliminating any savings associated with vehicles that get better economy.

https://www.alec.org/model-policy/re...-all-vehicles/

I’m not a fan of bought and paid for legislation telling me what is fair and to whom. I also don’t like legislation that drives a windfall of money to a private 3rd party like IHS Markit to administer these laws and handle public data.

Further, ignoring the breach of public trust and the payoffs...
Eliminating the cost savings to charge everyone from a moped to a 900lb car to a 20,000lb box truck the same cost is regressive and akin to beating up kids at lemonade stands for tax evasion.

Registration fees are designed to collect the cost of the plate, procedurals/overhead and paperwork
Nothing more
and should be eliminated as annual re-occurring taxes.
Fees like these regardless of how large cannot fund any roads as they go into the general fund.

Doing so would save millions of dollars in court, police and beauracratic costs and force government to take hold of proper and efficient funding methods. Re-assigning responsibility back to where it belongs.

This legislation is fully funded by powerful lobbies representing commercial, energy and trucking interests and allows inefficient businesses to continue to flourish by not paying for even a part of the true costs associated with their business models.

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Old 12-18-2019, 07:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I really doubt the Democratic (supermajority ) Oregon legislature is cribbing from ALEC (GOP’s organization targeting state legislation)

The ALEC sample bill you linked is attempting to get rid of EV tax credits. Oregon is not.

This change in registration fees is part of the Keep Oregon Moving transportation package passed in 2017. That bill:
  • Increased the gas tax 31%
  • ADDED a $2,500 Oregon EV rebate + another $2,500 EV rebate for low to moderate income households. The low income rebate even applies to used EVs. (Note this is a rebate not a tax credit so everyone that qualifies gets the full amount)
  • Added congestion charging for Portland
  • Increased spending on public transportation
  • These are not Republican objectives.

This also has nothing to do with trucking. Commercial vehicles already have their own registration fees, flat fees, and weight / mile fees. A fully loaded Class 8 truck pays $0.215 per mile in Oregon on top of registration and fuel taxes.

I agree that registration fees should only include the cost to register the vehicle and adding flat fees to raise additional money is a poor way of collecting taxes. I also see no reason we should exclude people driving EVs from their obligation to help pay for the roads they drive one. Registration fees are a poor solution to the problem but the problem still exists. Personally, I believe a fee per mile road tax is not only fair but solves the problem of decreasing gasoline tax revenue while infrastructure costs continue to increase.

That said the transportation bill as a whole was a win. EV owners paying an extra $110 per year to register their cars isn’t the end of the world especially when the state is giving that owner $2,500 up front to buy the car. They also have the option to enroll in OReGO and pay $0.017 per mile instead of the extra $110 registration fee. Drive less than 6500 mile per year and it is cheaper to pay per mile.

Portland’s population increased by 1 million people in the past 35 years and is projected to add another million in the next 30. Our transportation infrastructure is woefully inadequate today. We will need massive investment in the coming decades (especially in public transportation) if we have in hope of even maintaining the status quo.
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Old 12-18-2019, 08:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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rmay is right though.

I can somewhat kinda get behind a pay per mile tax since that attempts at "fair", but as I keep repeating, infrastructure is vital to all people regardless if they use it directly or merely benefit in nearly every aspect from it. Does it matter if I'm driving to visit someone and fronting the cost of that trip, or if the other person is making the drive? We both benefit. The cost of infrastructure is most fairly paid for by regular taxation, and budgeted just like any other government service we deem vital. Perhaps there's some interstate commerce that benefits from locally funded infrastructure. Who cares because we benefit when we're using their infrastructure.

Portland stands no chance at improving the current horrid traffic problems until technology begins to solve them. Telecommuting may alleviate some of the problem, but automation may help solve some of it too. I really don't know why so many people need to show up to an office when we all have computers and printers. I fix servers located states away from my home.

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