FVT eVaro plug-in serial hybrid

[dcb]

that is one scenario, and one that is hyped to death. I think an equally likely scenario is folks just forget it is a plugin, like so many priui blasting down the hiway at 80mph.

I've heard the peak bsfc bit before, and it isn't unique to series hybrids, I target bsfc everyday with a 15 year old car. The benefits of series are exceedingly speculative. To me series is the "automatic transmission" of the hybrid world, expensive and inefficient and makes lazy drivers. Series is penultimate if even that.

You can pretend the efficiency faries came in and made all those conversions super efficient all the time, but I won't be believing it till I see it.

Originally Posted by dcb

engine -> generator -> charger -> battery charge -> battery discharge -> controller -> motor -> drivetrain -> wheels
[vs]
i.e. engine -> drivetrain -> wheels.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

-- think of the generator --> electric motor as the transmission.

LOL!

[NeilBlanchard]

I hope that you go back and read what I added to my post. And I hope that you keep an open mind. You cannot match a serial hybrid which achieves nearly 100% BSFC during acceleration. Nor can you have any regenerative braking.

A good EV has about 80% efficiency at least. The Aptera 2e is about 91% efficient, and the eVaro is probably higher than that.

If you drove 8 hours covering 480 miles at 60mph, would you be able to turn off the engine for 6 hours? And for the 2 hours you did run the engine, would you be able to achieve nearly 100% BSFC?

[dcb]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

I hope that you go back and read what I added to my post. And I hope that you keep an open mind.

I did, and I do, I am the one that seemd to be going against the grain here so I must offer you your own advice re: open mind. If I had a name like "evaros are super awesome" you might have reason to think me biased , but I just want to see an accounting of the assumptions.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

You cannot match a serial hybrid which achieves nearly 100% BSFC during acceleration. Nor can you have any regenerative braking.

We have a major disconnect here. Im talking about a parallel range extender vs series. I.e. you have an EV (with regenerative braking) that has an ICE that runs near bsfc peak at 60mph (plus whatever safety factor) by direct drive or a couple gears if the numbers add up, and the ev takes up the slack (either by adding torque or regen) .

With such a system you can most certainly stay near bsfc peak, you can regen while in steady state or while braking, though coasting is always a better option for efficiencies sake. You can still go 200 miles on battery power, and cruise more efficiently than a series on your ice between towns.

Look at the green grand prix, these guys getting 70% of the target mpg with real cars, not ones with optimally sized engines or nothin.

look at Matzu Matsuzawa getting 470 mpg, in 1985! In real world conditions.

ideally you want bsfc AND a clean drivetrain (and coasting). Someone needs to do a real accounting of the losses in a series hybrid though, and quit the hype.

[NeilBlanchard]

If you drove a parallel hybrid for 8 hours covering 480 miles at 60mph, would you be able to turn off the engine for 6 hours? And for the 2 hours you did run the engine, would you be able to achieve nearly 100% BSFC?

[dcb]

yes, if you put a big engine in it. but there too is a compromise, if you only need a couple extra miles then shlepping the big ICE around is also wasteful.

Coasting is STILL more efficient though, pulse for 1/4 the time, glide for 3/4.

[NeilBlanchard]

A "big" engine -- why? And what type of parallel hybrid are you using?

P&G involves acceleration, so that means the engine is not being run at one RPM. And how does using a parallel hybrid benefit you for doing P&G?

Here's real world independent party testing of the previous generation eVaro.

[rbrowning]

DCB "Nobody has directly addressed the question of recharging the battery from the ice, which is the most inefficient use of gas." ... "I think an equally likely scenario is folks just forget it is a plugin"

Well that really sucks to be them, but the laws of economics are about as absolute as the laws of gravity. If someone wants to be stupid, as long as they aren't hurting my pocket book, let them. I don't shed a tear for my nephew in his souped up mustang, but I do feel sorry for the contractor in his F-250 work truck, one is doing it by choice and one by need. Just give me the tools that I need to live the way I choose at a price that I can afford. We can't all afford to live like Al Gore!

Weren't the submarines of WW2 diesel / electric? Do you think that they put to sea with dead batteries, planning on letting the diesels charge them, just because they had the capability to? Or do you think the skipper made sure that they were topped off from shore power to give him as much range as possible?

[dcb]

Lol, this is my point, I'm trying to make it add up and all we have to go on is a test of a couple kilometers expressed using doug palmears favorite term, mpgE, and some bizzare al gore reference

If you know ahead of time that some percentage of the population will not plug it in, then you have to account for that in any equivelant EPA mpg numbers. They are not Ping the E otherwise.

And if you don't think folks acting like and being treated like sheep costs you...

This is a good example. The parallel setup has higher peak efficiencies (believe me), but in the wrong hands will have lower efficiencies. But instead of educating people we assume they can't manage it.

Yes, the military can order people to charge the submarine.

but still I have listed 5 new conversion steps for series, which likely are only at their peak values some of the time, just like a real car. And nobody can say what the losses are at each step?

Do you know what hybrid mileage champs DON'T do? they DON'T charge the battery with the engine.

if you made a generous swag at those 5 extra conversions, and said they were each %95 efficient, you would be looking at a %23 drop in peak efficiency (vs parallel) in turning the gasoline energy into forward motion, if you are charging the batteries to push the car.

[NeilBlanchard]

An EV blows away an ICE for efficiency. Compare the RAV4 EV with it's gas powered counterpart: 114mpge vs ~30mpg (and the EV version is faster).

An ICE at a constant RPM is the most efficient way to run it. No ICE powered car or parallel hybrid can do this.

Combine these, and you have a plug-in serial hybrid.

Again, I ask you what parallel hybrid can beat this?

[dcb]

do you think a parallel setup cant also be a plug in?

do you think a constant 24% drivetrain loss is not substantial?

do you not think a halfway decent driver can keep the load relatively closer than that to bsfc peak? Especially with the right engine for the job? And especially with electric motors/regen at their disposal (fine, teach a computer to do it/ whatever)

What series hybrids have made it to production? I'm trying to focus on the realities here, not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, speculative arguments about non quatified vehicles.