(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?

[Xringer]

Toyota and Honda are marketing against themselves as well as the rest of the market in trying to make their Hybrids compete against the Diesels they already sell

Maybe in other markets.. But, here in the USA??
I don't know anyone who buys anything but gasoline cars & trucks..

I wonder how many 5 passenger Diesels are on the road around here? Maybe 1 out of every 5,000 cars?

In my town today, I can get gas for $2.60 diesel is $3.10 a gallon..
Boston Gas Prices - Find Cheap Gas Prices in Massachusetts

I see a few diesel cars while bicycling in Lexington, when we ride past the homes of millionaires.

Just a guess, but if the demand for diesel cars increases, I'm pretty sure the cost of diesel fuel is going to increase too.
It's basically the same stuff that millions of people heat their homes with..
Just with extra taxes..

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Xringer

Toyota and Honda are marketing against themselves as well as the rest of the market in trying to make their Hybrids compete against the Diesels they already sell

Maybe in other markets.. But, here in the USA??

I Agree. I am talking about outside the USA - thats my point.

In the US people tend to buy bigger cars, petrol ones, mainly with AT. Not ecomodders obviously, but the main market. Compared to those Hybrids make sense - they are auto, get good MPG and are actually sold for less in the US that in other markets. I would buy one if I was in the US - it makes sense.

(Note to Toyota, please explain price differences between the US and UK for the same car. Do not use the usual flannel about different spec in the UK as we have already dealt with that argument. Also do not use the LHD vs RHD argument - we drive on the same side as you do in Japan )

Anyhoo, when you have a market (Europe) which by nature tends to buy smaller and more economical petrol cars and a lot of Diesels (>50% in some markets), Hybrids have no advantage to the owner. Not even auto these days.

And when Honda and Toyota also sell those smaller petrol and diesel cars as well as Hybrids they are kind of competing against themselves.

Its kind of them saying "Hello Europe. THIS IS THE FUTURE!"



But if you don't like the 20% extra cash we are asking for that future or indeed the extra weight and less space and harsh ride, how about this future instead.



And we'll sell you a Diesel one because thats really what you want isn't it, otherwise you will go and buy a VW or a Peugeot or a Renault or a Nissan ?

Actually Nissan are a good example. Sell loads of Diesels. Not a Hybrid to be seen in their range. They aren't stupid. Instead they have bypassed all of that nonsense, taken their version of the Renault Clio (the Leaf) and will go full electric. Bet there will be a petrol / diesel Leaf too in Europe soon as well.

Originally Posted by Xringer

I don't know anyone who buys anything but gasoline cars & trucks..

Well, they must sell a few otherwise VW wouldn't be advertising them and the TDI Club website wouldn't be running a long thread about how other people react when they stop to fill up their passenger cars at Diesel pumps.

Stories when filling up at "gasoline station" - TDIClub Forums

The like to laugh a lot about that, those TDIClub guys... Its the joke that keeps on giving.

[unixrocks]

I like driving it first and foremost - forget the mpg etc...It is a bit of a "zen" car - quiet and I dont get a harsh ride with it - its rather smooth to my thinking.

I think hybrids are a bit of a sellout in some ways - always have thought so.

It was Toyotas way of making money off the disgruntled EV crowd in the US that had their cars taken away in the late 90s without getting rid of the ICE plus it gave them a "this is the future" image.

I would love to have a EV with 100 mile range that can keep up on the freeway but....I dont see that happening for another 7 years even if they catch on big. After all I wanted the 1999 Rav EV and here I am buying my first Prius (used) 10 years later - it has taken then market that long for it to be affordable for me.

EVs I think will have a faster adoption rate but same deal - at first it will be a status symbol for at least 5 years.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xringer

Maybe in other markets.. But, here in the USA?? I don't know anyone who buys anything but gasoline cars & trucks...

That's true of cars, but in this part of the country there are a lot of diesel pickups.

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

That's true of cars, but in this part of the country there are a lot of diesel pickups.

I have a lot of relatives down in south Texas and the last time I was down
there a few years ago, I think they were all still driving gas pickups..
(Well, a few of them had gas powered cars)..

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that you paid a lot extra
for that diesel truck engine.?. Like enough to get deluxe gas pickup.

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by unixrocks

EVs I think will have a faster adoption rate but same deal - at first it will be a status symbol for at least 5 years.

I've heard a theory saying the Volt was too big to fail..
Because it's being made by Government Motors, failure is not an option.

If it's a piece of junk (like many past GM products), the government will spent billions to make it right.
What ever it takes. Money is no object..

So, buying a Volt could be a really safe bet. Owners could be getting brand
new battery packs or motors etc. every few years.

GM has to know that recalls=lost votes..

[Xringer]

"In the US people tend to buy bigger cars, petrol ones, mainly with AT. Not ecomodders obviously, but the main market. Compared to those Hybrids make sense - they are auto, get good MPG and are actually sold for less in the US that in other markets. I would buy one if I was in the US - it makes sense."


I wanted to get the Escape Hybrid, but it didn't make sense for me..
I only drive a couple thousand miles a year.
So, I was sensible and got the gas version..


Almost all my driving is in traffic, so the MPG isn't that great.. 24mpg on good days.
But, I only buy gas about once a month..



http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/3092.png

[bwilson4web]

Important insight here:

Originally Posted by Xringer

. . .
I wanted to get the Escape Hybrid, but it didn't make sense for me..
I only drive a couple thousand miles a year.
So, I was sensible and got the gas version.
. . .

Fuel efficiency makes most sense for those who drive the most.

When CNW Marketing published the discredited "Dust-to-Dust" report, we soon learned the only fraud that made a difference was in the expected miles per year. There was a consistent pattern of showing any hybrid as having fewer miles per year than the non-hybrid version. This led to an interesting contradiction:

Given a two car family with a gas and hybrid version of the same model, say the Camry, a hybrid skeptic would claim they would drive the car that consumes more fuel each year and keep the hybrid on the driveway 'for show.'

This hubris, the claim that hybrids are 'for show,' is common with hybrid skeptics. Some hybrid skeptics will acknowledge that hybrid taxis and high-mileage usages make sense but they can't imagine individual owners who drive more than average mileage making a similar economic analysis.

If you want to have fun with the 'economic analysis' of a skeptic, propose driving an extra 5,000 miles per year to their model. Often, the 'payback' period becomes a lot shorter. Better still, double the miles per year, a true 'road warrior,' and use their same numbers. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

[robchalmers]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Actually Nissan are a good example. Sell loads of Diesels. Not a Hybrid to be seen in their range. They aren't stupid. Instead they have bypassed all of that nonsense, taken their version of the Renault Clio (the Leaf) and will go full electric. Bet there will be a petrol / diesel Leaf too in Europe soon as well.

I've put my name down for the pre-production testdrives in sunderland and to be honest I think I'm getting my hopes up, but I'd rather buy one of those, than a hybrid. instead of £6 roughly in diesel a day, it would use less than £3 of electric according to my insiders which would recoup the expendature PDQ!

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xringer

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that you paid a lot extra for that diesel truck engine.?. Like enough to get deluxe gas pickup.

No idea on pricing, but most (new) pickups hereabouts do tend to be deluxe versions anyway. Lot of "big hat, no cattle" types around, who're apparently willing to fork over bucks for chrome, light bars, lift kits... and a "Cummins Diesel" badge on the fender.

But I've never run any actual numbers, I'm just going by how often something with a diesel engine pulls beside me in traffic.