(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?

[Xringer]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

No idea on pricing, but most (new) pickups hereabouts do tend to be deluxe versions anyway. Lot of "big hat, no cattle" types around, who're apparently willing to fork over bucks for chrome, light bars, lift kits... and a "Cummins Diesel" badge on the fender.

But I've never run any actual numbers, I'm just going by how often something with a diesel engine pulls beside me in traffic.

I just visited the You-build-it Ford site and found a new 2011? F250
for a mere $28,020 not too bad.. But when I selected the diesel engine,
it also added the required drive-train too.

At $35,855 it's $7,835 more than the plain gasser.
That 36k is before you get to the packages (radio etc).
After a few add-ons, it's gonna be in the 40k range.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xringer

At $35,855 it's $7,835 more than the plain gasser.
That 36k is before you get to the packages (radio etc).
After a few add-ons, it's gonna be in the 40k range.

Yeah, but that's what some people spend on their vehicles around here. (If not more: think Escalade, Range Rover, etc.) I can't see it myself, but everybody knows I'm weird :-)

[Xringer]

Those aren't the Hypermiling type.. Anyone that has money to burn doesn't really need to give a dam about how much gas his car is burning..

I think we may be a bit off topic here. I think the discussion started off talking about hybrids vs other high MPG cars.

Re: hybrids being status symbol cars, I would lean more towards the Fusion,
than the Prius.. That Ford just looks slick to my eye..

If the Volt stays at $40,000 it's going to be status symbol for sure..
But, guys who just love gadgets and have the spare bucks, will be driving them too.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Xringer

I wanted to get the Escape Hybrid, but it didn't make sense for me..
I only drive a couple thousand miles a year.
So, I was sensible and got the gas version..


Almost all my driving is in traffic, so the MPG isn't that great.. 24mpg on good days.
But, I only buy gas about once a month..

Ok. Except here (Europe) you could buy a Mondeo Diesel and get 40+ MPG (US). Or if you need to sit high and don't need 4wd how about a Kuga TDCI



Its just as silly as driving an Escape full time on tarmac but it does come with FWD only (so lighter and less transmission drag) and a TDCi engine - made by Ford, and not sold in the US.

If I was American I would ask Ford why there isn't an Escape TDCi as well. The engine meets the same emissions tests as the VW ones sold in the US and is arguably better in some respects. Ford uses / makes some really decent Diesel units here - Mrs A is looking at a Mondeo Estate which is rated for 50mpg+ (Imperial) and does 130mph+.

Ford sells no Hybrids in Europe and has no plans to.

[Xringer]

My Escape is FWD with a 2.5L + 6 speed auto and can actually do pretty well out on the highway.
Unless I'm speeding.. Like most other drivers in this state.
I did some testing last fall and actually hit 40 mpg a couple of times,
just using the cruise control set to 55 mph..

I have found that good flat 40 mph country roads can give me a nice 40 mpg,
if I take care not to get in a hurry..

This Ford gives me better mpg than I got from my old CRV 2.0L 5 speed manual.
Even after I yanked off all the RTAWD parts..

Must be the little air dam under the nose..

[payne171]

I am surprised and a little disappointed that we have 9 pages of posts and never made it to several obvious reasons as to why diesel works better in Europe and hybrids work better for US tastes. First, politics. Diesel is taxed at a higher rate in the US and lower in europe. Second, supply. There are slightly different refinement techniques used in Europe and the US. The US way nets more gas and less diesel per barrel of oil compared to the European way, and switching methods is expensive. Third, more politics. NOx emissions are tightly regulated (thanks, Cali) in the US by more than a factor of 4 (.07g/mi versus .29g/mi in Europe), and diesels are notoriously bad at NOx emissions compared to gasoline engines. Yes, even the newer clean diesels barely pass California emissions, whereas hybrids are some of the cleanest cars on the road.

[roflwaffle]

It's .09 versus .24 for the US versus EU standards. It's not like manufacturers can't bring over diesels, VW sells plenty of diesels in CA w/ it's .07 NOx limit, it's that they don't think there's a market for them because most people in the US don't like diesel and the ones that do will probably buy VW since they've been the only one in the US to offer diesels consistently.

[payne171]

Perhaps there is some variation from state to state or the levels have changed; the article I read stated the numbers I posted, which was from a trusted news source whose name escapes me. Yes they can bring them over; BMW, Mercedes, and Audi are all new entrants to the game. It's not nearly as easy as it sounds, though. Remember, VW stopped selling diesels for a few years because the old 1.9L could no longer pass emissions. If the engines in Europe were not designed with US emissions in mind, it would be very costly to design one that would like VW. Or they could add Urea injection as BMW and Mercedes did, also not ideal as Urea runs out. Or, car companies can rent Toyota's tech, as Ford and Nissan do, which already has a proven track record in the marketplace. Even with all of the above arguments, cost is the biggest factor for many. Go shop for a low mileage used car that gets great mileage and doesn't feel cheap. We got a 30k mile 2007 Accord Hybrid for $16000. How many diesels were for sale within 100 miles that were comparable in size, price (read: NOT a New Beetle) and didn't have 3 times the miles? Zero. If there was one I would have pushed hard for it because of the durability of diesels.

[bwilson4web]

Hi,

Originally Posted by payne171

I am surprised and a little disappointed that we have 9 pages of posts and never made it to several obvious reasons as to why diesel works better in Europe and hybrids work better for US tastes. First, politics. . . .

The only problem with "politics" is it is easy to ignore the engineering, the physics and math, behind the technology . . . nature's law. But the USA is tolerant of experiments.

A couple of years ago, we read about an old, VW Rabbit that had a Jetta TDI engine transplant. A little pricy (OK, labor was free) and they walked away from nearly 30 years of safety engineering. Still it was an interesting experiment.

What I'm trying to suggest is Ecomodder is about the freedom to experiment and try some of the EU solutions. See how well they work in practice in the USA based upon nature's laws and share the results. There are reasons, "9 pages," of nature's laws that go quite beyond politics suggesting the EU solutions may not be optimal.

Bob Wilson

[payne171]

I agree with you. I was more trying to counter-argue why hybrids make more sense here while diesels sell better in Europe. My argument was more Econ 101 than Engineering 500.