How to Use Less Fuel (yet another HHO thread, lacking substantive evidence)

[ITGuy]

But does the alternator generate more amps at drive-time which the car does not use anyway .. to support louder speaker, more lights, etc?

Originally Posted by mwebb

if the HHO system "works" it would have to produce MORE energy than is used to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen

which it does not and can not .
the energy to split the water is taken from the car's charging system which in turn is derived from increasing the amount of fuel the engine burns because , there is no free lunch or free energy .

therefore HHO takes more energy to Make than it releases when added to the engine for
a NET LOSS of energy

and as an added bonus the HHO brings with it , nasty byproducts of electrolysis to the engine - which do NOT enhance overall engine life .

and for only $700 , such a deal .

[Baggage Handler #2]

Originally Posted by ITGuy

But does the alternator generate more amps at drive-time which the car does not use anyway .. to support louder speaker, more lights, etc?

No. Or at least, "It Depends."
Link: Alternator Field Coil - MiniMopar Resources

The alternator field coil is the magnetic coil inside the alternator that controls its output current. The more current passed through the field coil, the more current the alternator produces. Since the coil is resistive, this appears as a voltage across the coil terminals. The current through the coil is regulated by the power module, which is controlled by the logic module. The logic module uses its voltage sense input to monitor the charging system voltage and adjust it accordingly. One side of the coil is connected to the ignition key switch "on" terminal (for 12V) and the other side is switched to ground by the power module's switching control circuit. The logic module cycles this end of the coil on and off at a fixed frequency and varies the amount of time the terminal is grounded, which is called the duty cycle. At 0% duty cycle, the terminal is always open and no current is produced by the alternator. At 100% duty cycle, the terminal is always grounded and the alternator produces maximum output current. The duty cycle is varied by the logic module, depending on the electrical demand placed on the charging system, and varies the target charging voltage, based on battery temperature. The greater the demand (more accessories on), the greater the duty cycle.

So, in a nutshell, if you don't need the HVAC fan on, turn it off, and you will burn slightly less fuel.
This is also true for the HHO thingy. It will take extra fuel to power that thing.

Physics is not only a harsh "mistriss," it is supremely indifferent to our wishful thoughts.

[ITGuy]

The alternator spins all the time when the engine is running ... whether at 0% duty cycle or 100% duty cycle ... the charge controller determines whether charging happens or not. An alternator spinning at less 100% duty cycle is wasting fossil fuel energy. This explains why efficient HHO boosters installed on my car, two family members and an office mate noticed extra power.

Originally Posted by Baggage Handler #2

No. Or at least, "It Depends."
Link: Alternator Field Coil - MiniMopar Resources

The alternator field coil is the magnetic coil inside the alternator that controls its output current. The more current passed through the field coil, the more current the alternator produces. Since the coil is resistive, this appears as a voltage across the coil terminals. The current through the coil is regulated by the power module, which is controlled by the logic module. The logic module uses its voltage sense input to monitor the charging system voltage and adjust it accordingly. One side of the coil is connected to the ignition key switch "on" terminal (for 12V) and the other side is switched to ground by the power module's switching control circuit. The logic module cycles this end of the coil on and off at a fixed frequency and varies the amount of time the terminal is grounded, which is called the duty cycle. At 0% duty cycle, the terminal is always open and no current is produced by the alternator. At 100% duty cycle, the terminal is always grounded and the alternator produces maximum output current. The duty cycle is varied by the logic module, depending on the electrical demand placed on the charging system, and varies the target charging voltage, based on battery temperature. The greater the demand (more accessories on), the greater the duty cycle.

So, in a nutshell, if you don't need the HVAC fan on, turn it off, and you will burn slightly less fuel.
This is also true for the HHO thingy. It will take extra fuel to power that thing.

Physics is not only a harsh "mistriss," it is supremely indifferent to our wishful thoughts.

[dcb]

any additional power you draw from your alternator comes, somewhat inefficiently, from your gas tank.

[ITGuy]

I have tried a few HHO boosters and have used inefficient ones. The one I am using today has been performing very well for my small car. Additional power is immediately noticeable.

Originally Posted by dcb

any additional power you draw from your alternator comes, somewhat inefficiently, from your gas tank.

[dcb]

are we talking about power or using less fuel?

And if all you have is anecdotal evidence, that is pretty much useless. Please refer to the link in post 16 if you wish to make a credible claim
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post180025

[mwebb]

Originally Posted by ITGuy

The alternator spins all the time when the engine is running ... whether at 0% duty cycle or 100% duty cycle ... the charge controller determines whether charging happens or not. An alternator spinning at less 100% duty cycle is wasting fossil fuel energy. This explains why efficient HHO boosters installed on my car, two family members and an office mate noticed extra power.

you are wrong again -
your 2006 honda civic does control the duty cycle to the alternator
as a way to NOT load the engine un necessarily.
so when the ELD sees a need for the ECM to increase alternator output
the ECM increases duty cycle to the alternator , which increases alternator output and decreases FE by increasing engine load.
when the alternator is loafing ,engine load is reduced and FE is increased .

if you knew how to use it -
your handwritten POS software with your scan tool will show you this , if you simply look at the duty cycle to the ALT with engine calculated load while changing electrical loads .

you should gain an understanding of the systems your HOAX allegedly works with before claiming improvements that someone with a modicum of understanding knows are not possible .

it is time for ewe to ;
provide numbers to verify your HOAX , ITG GFB

[Christ]

The whole point of the first post... getting back to that... would be to have the engine reading that the TPS is higher than it should be compared to the MAF signal. Higher throttle opening usually means more fuel, but in FI cars, the MAF measures the actual mass of the air being flowed, so the ECM assumes that the car is operating in a low-pressure area or a warm air area. This can be refuted or proven by the IAT, which determines temperature alongside the MAF's reading.

Together, the sensors provide information about how much mass is in a given volume of air, and the temperature of that mass, which helps to determine barometric pressure at the current conditions.

None of those things would be affected by a restriction in the intake tract beyond the MAF sensor.

[ITGuy]

It is always those who have not tried who say it is not possible.

[Baggage Handler #2]

Originally Posted by ITGuy

It is always those who have not tried who say it is not possible.

Unsupported assertion.

Look, I'm trying to be nice here, but you keep making posts asserting that you're on to a trick to help navigate a crack between the laws of thermodynamics and that trick can be mine for only seven hundred clams.

Really, if it's that good, it's worth billions. No kidding. But it isn't, because it says that physics don't apply. Physics always apply.

And to add a positive to this post, here's a place to get some background on what those laws of physics are:
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Open Courseware, Physics.

That's free stuff there, and good too.