The hybrid ticking time bomb

[S Keith]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Ya, mine also may need an engine block (need to find out why it burns oil, could be just a PCV valve hopefully) and a catalytic converter (in a California compliant state).

it's a Prius. Those that don't burn oil are rare. It's the nature of the beast. When you start and stop an engine 30 times a drive, you get a lot of heat cycles on it. Crap accumulates in the rings and grooves, etc. Folks, including myself, have had success soaking the cylinders with Berryman's B-9 (chem-dip) down the spark plug holes for 24-48 hours. Neighbor has 300K+ on his 2007, and it was GUZZLING oil - about 1 qt/400 miles. After a treatment, it cut oil burn to 1.5qt/5K mile.

I did it to my ratmobile, and I haven't had to add oil for about 2000 miles with it just below the top mark of the dipstick. It burned 2qt/5K mile before.

If you have P0420, it could be solely due to your oil burn rate.

I have a 6 cell NiMH charger and a capacity tester. I tested all the modules and one just wouldn't stop acting like it had a flat cell. I replaced that one and two others that had the lowest capacity with three newer modules. I haven't driven it enough to really see how it'll react with the newer modules.

Shortcut: Discharge the battery in "N" until the HV battery isolates. Let the battery sit for a full 48 hours. Check all module voltages. Modules lower than 0.05V below the highest voltage module should just be replaced. End modules can be up to 0.10V below the high module.

"newer modules" - Did you test those too? Unless you're buying from reputable sources, you may be getting garbage.

Unless it's a high end unit capable of about 20A discharge, it's likely not useful on its own. You need to add a ~60A load test. hit the module with the 100A 12V load testers and record voltage drop. Compare all 28. Discard the outliers.

One more thing about Gen3 Prius... they EAT engines. You may have heard about head gasket issues, but it's way worse than that. Without fail, after another 10-20K miles, need another head gasket, or a thrown rod. If a Gen3 has a bad head gasket, it needs a new engine. Period.

DO NOT FOLLOW TOYOTA'S RECOMMENDATION TO CHANGE OIL @ 10k MILES IF USING SYNTHETIC. STICK WITH 5K MILES.

[seuadr]

Originally Posted by S Keith

09+ do not have the jump starter and must be disassembled and charged.

they must've added it back by 2018, because mine did the same thing and i was able to jump it.

[mort]

Originally Posted by S Keith

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary View Post
There's a 2008 Ford hybrid on that list that says "hybrid battery failure, will need towed."

More often than not, the FEH/MMH simply need a recharge. 05-08 have a built-in jump starter that allows on-board charging from the 12V (best if done attached to a running jump vehicle). 09+ do not have the jump starter and must be disassembled and charged. I do 1-2 dozen a year for folks that let them sit until they discharge. Pandemic had me particularly busy with 09-10. Had 4 on site at one time.

Those years look funny.
I'm pretty sure the only Ford hybrid in 2008 was the Escape (hybrid from 2005 thru 2012 And again from 2020). The first year Fusion & Milan hybrids were 2010.
-mort

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by S Keith

it's a Prius. Those that don't burn oil are rare. It's the nature of the beast. When you start and stop an engine 30 times a drive, you get a lot of heat cycles on it. Crap accumulates in the rings and grooves, etc. Folks, including myself, have had success soaking the cylinders with Berryman's B-9 (chem-dip) down the spark plug holes for 24-48 hours. Neighbor has 300K+ on his 2007, and it was GUZZLING oil - about 1 qt/400 miles. After a treatment, it cut oil burn to 1.5qt/5K mile.

I did it to my ratmobile, and I haven't had to add oil for about 2000 miles with it just below the top mark of the dipstick. It burned 2qt/5K mile before.

If you have P0420, it could be solely due to your oil burn rate.



Shortcut: Discharge the battery in "N" until the HV battery isolates. Let the battery sit for a full 48 hours. Check all module voltages. Modules lower than 0.05V below the highest voltage module should just be replaced. End modules can be up to 0.10V below the high module.

"newer modules" - Did you test those too? Unless you're buying from reputable sources, you may be getting garbage.

Unless it's a high end unit capable of about 20A discharge, it's likely not useful on its own. You need to add a ~60A load test. hit the module with the 100A 12V load testers and record voltage drop. Compare all 28. Discard the outliers.

One more thing about Gen3 Prius... they EAT engines. You may have heard about head gasket issues, but it's way worse than that. Without fail, after another 10-20K miles, need another head gasket, or a thrown rod. If a Gen3 has a bad head gasket, it needs a new engine. Period.

DO NOT FOLLOW TOYOTA'S RECOMMENDATION TO CHANGE OIL @ 10k MILES IF USING SYNTHETIC. STICK WITH 5K MILES.

I'll try fixing the rings. But I'd also like to get a scope and see if the cylinders are damaged (which is what happens if the rings seize.)

I tested the newer modules and they had more capacity than any of mine.

[redpoint5]

Yikes, I guess my habit of changing the oil ever 12,000 miles might have been pushing it... then again, I was doing 70% of those miles in EV mode, so maybe only 4,000 miles on the engine between changes.

That said, plenty of trips where the engine would only run for 1 minute before I got home and parked.

[Ecky]

I was pretty heavily involved in the G1 Insight community, and still admin the Facebook page. In my decade of ownership, I never had a battery issue. However, it had received a new hybrid battery from Honda under warranty a few years before I bought the car. I eventually sold the battery from my 250k mile car for around $800 and put in a high performance (non-hybrid) engine to goof off with for a few years.

- It's pretty much to be assumed when buying a (2000-2006) Insight that it has a bad battery, or will have one soon.

- Heat kills batteries faster. I would think twice about owning a hybrid in an extremely hot climate.

- Aftermarket batteries are as good as their warranty. The owners of many of the aftermarket battery companies are also enthusiasts and are involved in the communities, so there is a degree of trust there - even knowing the batteries are only good for 4-5 years.

- Brand new aftermarket Chinese cells don't seem to hold out much better than 15-20 year old OEM cells that have been handpicked.

- Bumblebee sells a decent battery. $2000 for a Camry, $1400-2000 for an Insight.

- To my knowledge, Honda's IMA system is the only one that will run with a completely failed or absent hybrid battery.

I briefly had an electrical issue (caused by a water leak, caused by my own tinkering) that disabled my hybrid system, and I found it difficult to live with how much slower the car was. Fuel economy was down maybe... 10%? Later, I drove the car for around a year with a voluntarily removed battery, and found that, under the condition of having consciously removed it, I really didn't mind driving the car without it. Sure, it was slower, but more like "normal 80's economy car" slow. In other words, context was key.

~

This time around, I purchased a non-hybrid, but not because I wouldn't trust owning one. However, this being the newest car I've ever owned (at 7 years old), I actually view a lot of the electronics in it rather dubiously. For instance, if the infotainment system dies, I have no idea how affected the rest of the car would be. A lot of critical settings reside in it, and I'm not sure if needs to be functional for them to work.

Off the top of my head, this car's complex electronics include:
-Infotainment
-Keyless entry and start
-Push-to-start button
-Light sensing headlights
-Headlights that follow the steering angle
-Automatic wipers
-Lane detection
-Backup radar
-Backup camera
-Blind spot detection
-Automatic rolldown of the windows when latching and unlatching the top
-Automatic equalizer depending on if the top is up or down
-Traction and stability control

The engine controls are also wicked sensitive. It has a 14:1 compression ratio and gets away with this by controlling ignition timing very reactively, and to a tenth of a degree. How is that going to age?

So much of this is controlled by a nest of computers and relays. While electronics don't seem too bothered by miles, they DO fail with age. I can see it becoming a basket case once gremlins begin, even without a hybrid system.

That said, I don't see the alternative. With any luck the car will last until car ownership is no longer the standard. Meanwhile there are plenty of 34 year old Miatas still on the road, because they're less complex than a modern toaster oven.

[JSH]

Ecky's post is key to this discussion. What got this topic going was my assertion that economically there is no reason that every vehicle today shouldn't be at least a hybrid. The extra initial cost is paid back many times over in fuel savings over in the life of the car.

There have been concerns about the life of a hybrid battery - and yes - they will die and most won't be replaced and the car will be scrapped. That is fine.

There has been discussion about how much easier it is to keep a conventional gas car on the road but the examples have been 15 to 35 years old. That is not the reality of today. Today's non-hybrid cars are much more complex than cars made decades ago. We live in an era where computers are required to change the lead acid starting battery and brake pads. Where HVAC controls and other basic functions are controlled by touchscreens. Where the typical car has miles of electrical wires and 1,000 or more chips. These aren't cars that are going to be fixed by the typical DIY mechanic 15 to 20 years from now.

There is also the reality that if we are talking about the working poor that can't afford anything more than a 15 year old car - generally these aren't homeowners. They are renting and most rentals have pretty strict rules against DIY repairs on the property. So even if someone knew how to fix the car, and had the computers to do it, they don't have the physical space to do the repairs. The vast majority of auto maintenance and repairs are done by profession mechanics.


Some highlights from the EPA vehicle trend report (2020 model year)

1. Turbocharged engines are rapidly increasing. The Europeans lead the way. 99% of BMW and Mercedes are turbocharged and 92% of VWs are. US automakers are gaining fast - 79% of Ford and 43% of GM. The Japanese and Koreas lag but they are adding turbos too. (Toyota is last at 3% but their newest engine is a twin-turbo hybrid)
2. 98% of cars sold have an automatic transmission. 52% have 7 or more gears.
3. 57% have direct injection and the high pressure fuel systems that come with that
4. 53% have stop / start.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

Today's non-hybrid cars are much more complex than cars made decades ago. We live in an era where computers are required to change the lead acid starting battery and brake pads. Where HVAC controls and other basic functions are controlled by touchscreens. Where the typical car has miles of electrical wires and 1,000 or more chips. These aren't cars that are going to be fixed by the typical DIY mechanic 15 to 20 years from now.

I think this is an excellent point. For an example, the radio doesn't work on my 9-year-old Avalon and I have no idea of how to fix it, except take it to a mechanic who can, which would likely be at a dealership, which I won't do because they had already "fixed it" and a couple years later it stopped working again.

It became too complicated for me to replace the brake fluid, so I had another shop do it, which bothers me because I'm weird and have a phobia of mechanics saying they did something but never really did do it. Plus they didn't use the brake fluid I would have preferred, assuming they actually changed the brake fluid.

This brings up the question, then what can a person do for cheap transportation? Yes, one could get a better paying job, move where other costs are cheaper, etc. But what if someone has a reason not to do that? What would be a cheap option in 15 to 20 years from now? Or is this going to be like the smartphone craze where years ago no one in their right mind, except the filthy rich, would spend more than a couple hundred dollars on a cellphone, if that. But now you go to a country where the average wage is $100 per week and somehow everyone has a $1,000 brand new iPhone.

This also brings up right-to-repair of course.

[redpoint5]

Given Ecky's example above, assuming the hybrid system improves fuel economy by 10% in a Honda Insight, I make the following assumptions and analysis;

12,000 miles driven per year
65 MPG average
$3 / gallon average fuel cost
15 year battery lifespan

2,769 gallons of fuel, $8,307

Without the hybrid battery and 10% worse fuel economy;
3,045 gallons of fuel, $9,138

$830 in fuel savings for the hybrid system in the Insight over 15 years.


This underscores my point about how hybrid tech has diminishing returns the smaller and more fuel efficient a vehicle is.

Regarding the complex nature of modern cars, the electronics can be replaced with new modules.

... My unmodern by today's standards 2006 Acura had a lose power cable to the DVD player in the trunk due to my tinkering, and my touchscreen wouldn't function without that. It made precisely controlling my HVAC and radio impossible. I can only imagine what a dead Tesla screen limits.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

This underscores my point about how hybrid tech has diminishing returns the smaller and more fuel efficient a vehicle is.

You are right.

2020 Toyota Sienna V6: 20mpg combined @ 12,000 miles per year for 15 years @ $3 per gallon is $27,000. In the 2020 Toyota Sienna hybrid with those same numbers but @36mpg it's $15,000 total.

That's $12,000 in savings, much greater than the $7,000 battery. And if you factor in fuel is probably going to be more like $4 or $5 average for the next 15 years a person would save even more.