Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[fshagan]

The cheap devices purporting to separate hydrogen from the water are banking on a "synergistic" effect of blending the two fuels (i.e., hydrogen gas and gasoline). Does it exist?

There is some effect that has been shown in labs that combining hydrogen and diesel improves combustion. But in those systems, half the diesel is displaced by the hydrogen gas. I don't think the little under-the-hood hydrogen generators are producing that much hydrogen.

I think this is snake oil, but its fine to experiment. Just be prepared to have the conventional wisdom win on this one.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by gteclass

The separation of water molecules takes a small ammount of energy. The combustion of hydrogen and oxygen to create water releases a large ammount of heat and pressure energy...

Crap. The combustion of hydrogen & oxygen produces EXACTLY as much energy as it took to separate them in the first place. Even if you could make the system 100% efficient (which you can't), you can't get more energy out than you put in. That's the way the universe works: if you have problems with it, I suggest you take up the issue with your deity-of-choice.

Until then, lets encourage people to at least give all these ideas a shot instead of beating the hopes and dreams out of people as if we were an oil company.

Translation: Instead of dealing with the real world, let's let people go on fantasizing about getting something for nothing, making them easy targets for every scammer with a good line of patter.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Have you folks heard of using (non-oxidized) aluminum to split water, and release the hydrogen?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10621223
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...-research.html
http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

You end up with aluminum oxide and hydrogen, with the gallium intact.

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Yes, there is a huge gap in your understanding :-) The principle is similar to the A/C clutch you mention. The A/C unit is a compressor: when it turns the engine does work compressing the refrigerant gas. Therefore you have a clutch to disconnect it when you don't want A/C.

Now with the alternator the same principle applies, except that the "clutch" is actually an electronic voltage regulator. (If you've worked on old cars, you've probably seen electromechanical regulators.) It controls the amount of energy the alternator takes from the engine & converts into electricity. If there's no electrical load, it only takes enough to overcome friction - if you were cranking it by hand, the alternator would spin freely. When there's a electrical demand, the regulator sends current through the alternator windings, causing it to create more electricity, which makes it hard to turn.

Bottom line: the more electricity you use, the harder the alternator is to turn. The engine has to supply more energy to turn it, and burns more gas to do so. THERE'S NO FREE LUNCH!

You still have not figured it out...
your not using the hydrogen for it's energy.
you are using it to enhance the combustion of gasoline. That is were you get better mileage.

It's not free lunch, it's eating more that's on your plate.

Putting it in simpler terms.
Suppose you have soup of lunch. (food = fuel)

your eating it with a fork. (regular fuel / air combustion) you can't eat all of it. (granted you don't sip straight from the bowl)

If given a spoon (hydrogen) you can eat more of the soup. (better combustion of fuel)

Get it?

[gteclass]

Originally Posted by 88CRX

You still have not figured it out...
your not using the hydrogen for it's energy.
you are using it to enhance the combustion of gasoline. That is were you get better mileage.

It's not free lunch, it's eating more that's on your plate.

Putting it in simpler terms.
Suppose you have soup of lunch. (food = fuel)

your eating it with a fork. (regular fuel / air combustion) you can't eat all of it. (granted you don't sip straight from the bowl)

If given a spoon (hydrogen) you can eat more of the soup. (better combustion of fuel)

Get it?

Very well said! Thank you for spelling it out so well!

neilblanchard,

I have seen this before somewhere, the only issue i see being that scrap alluminum is worth about .50$ per pound and the only way to get the alluminum back is to burn off the oxides which happens at about 2400 F. If we can maybe use the energy released from this combustion to generate electricity so we could reuse the alluminum then that would work great. Definitely something to think about.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by 88CRX

You still have not figured it out...
your not using the hydrogen for it's energy.
you are using it to enhance the combustion of gasoline. That is were you get better mileage.

I suggest you think about that a bit, and maybe examine typical emissions numbers. Combustion is pretty nearly complete: CO, unburned hydrocarbons, and so on are already miniscule.

Get it?

No. What I see is a retreat from one hand-waving pseudo-scientific justification for this scam - using 'free' energy from the alternator - to another one. Doesn't change the fact that if it looks & acts like a scam, it probably IS a scam.

[ebacherville]

these things really proliferated when Bush mentioned hydrogen power vehicles.. the scammers jumped on the stupid wagon and started offering rides to all that would join the ride..

now power it via solar and you may have somthing but your not going to get enough solar pannels ona car to power this thing.. electrolisys in that quantity simply draws LOTS of current.

[Daox]

The increase in efficiency from hydrogen enrichment is not from a more complete burn, its (basically) from a faster burn. There are also other benefits but I won't get into that right now.

No offense intended, but its pretty obvious that a lot of posters here are confused about how this works. Its not surprising either, because its really not the simplest thing. So, I highly suggest reading up on it. I know there is a lot of confusing info out there and I'll try to gather some good links and info on the subject in the near future.

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

I suggest you think about that a bit, and maybe examine typical emissions numbers. Combustion is pretty nearly complete: CO, unburned hydrocarbons, and so on are already miniscule.



No. What I see is a retreat from one hand-waving pseudo-scientific justification for this scam - using 'free' energy from the alternator - to another one. Doesn't change the fact that if it looks & acts like a scam, it probably IS a scam.

Your probably right, and it probably IS a scam... I think SO too.

But after you read the links I posted, you should see that introduction of Hydrogen in an gasoline burning engine improves combustion.

If you don't get it, I guess you just can't understand...

[COMP]

Originally Posted by Daox

The increase in efficiency from hydrogen enrichment is not from a more complete burn, its (basically) from a faster burn. There are also other benefits but I won't get into that right now.

No offense intended, but its pretty obvious that a lot of posters here are confused about how this works. Its not surprising either, because its really not the simplest thing. So, I highly suggest reading up on it. I know there is a lot of confusing info out there and I'll try to gather some good links and info on the subject in the near future.