Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[cfg83]

trikkonceptz -

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

I failed to mention, thinking some of you may have noticed, that once the Hydrogen is produce and seperated the remaining Oxygen does not get put into the engine. There is a seperate hose that runs off the unit into a filter and aired out into the atmosphere.

Ok, that is a HUGE difference. It has an 02 separator. No need to modify the oxygen sensor. I wish they said that in their website (I couldn't find that detail). That is the same idea as this :

HydranOx - $400
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

I would go back to them and say, "I can get a HydranOx for $400 to $700, how about a price break?"

It does have an electrolyte catalyst, however.

CarloSW2

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

I failed to mention, thinking some of you may have noticed, that once the Hydrogen is produce and seperated the remaining Oxygen does not get put into the engine. There is a seperate hose that runs off the unit into a filter and aired out into the atmosphere.

Why would they do that? Wouldn't it make sense to use that oxygen , since it is exactly the amount needed to burn the hydrogen being produced? Is it considered too volatile?

[cfg83]

Formula413 -

Originally Posted by Formula413

Well, the byproduct of burning a 2/1 hydrogen/oxygen mix is water, so if this device is supplying the engine with that, there wouldn't be any O2 left over, right? Unless there is some reason that the hydrogen would not burn completely. Water vapor is one of the main byproducts of burning gasoline, so in theory it shouldn't make any difference to the O2 sensors.

It's now a non-issue for this gizmo, but standard-issue Brown's Gas is the splitting of H2O into H2 and O2. If you make an HHO generator, you will be generating a mixture of H2 and O2 like so :

H2O ... H2O => electrolysis => H2 ... H2 ... O2

CarloSW2

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Originally Posted by Nerys

Does not matter where its "being refined" Energy In will always be more than energy out. Period.

The gasoline has already had it's energy added, during the refining stage. If you had to refine it IN THE CAR, it would take a lot of energy to do so.

This device GENERATES the hydrogen IN THE VEHICLE, therefore it takes more energy -- from the vehicle -- than it can generate. So, it follows the laws of physics, yes -- and since the added energy (the "overhead") comes from the car (and not externally from the refinery) -- it is very different from the fuel in the tank!

[cfg83]

Formula413 -

Originally Posted by Formula413

Why would they do that? Wouldn't it make sense to use that oxygen , since it is exactly the amount needed to burn the hydrogen being produced? Is it considered too volatile?

No, there is already oxygen in the atmosphere. The problem is the *addition* of oxygen from the HHO generator :

HydranOx
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

... Oxygen also has a negative effect on the vehicle. After the extra oxygen leaves the exhaust ports, one of the many oxygen sensors pick up on that oxygen, and sends a lean signal to the computer. Which in-turn increases the fuel to burn the oxygen better trying to keep the perfect burn ratios for the vehicles emissions. ...

PS - I am NOT an advocate of the HydranOx, it costs a lot of $$ also. But, I am using it for explanations because they appear "sound and concise" to me.

CarloSW2

[fshagan]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

This device GENERATES the hydrogen IN THE VEHICLE, therefore it takes more energy -- from the vehicle -- than it can generate. So, it follows the laws of physics, yes -- and since the added energy (the "overhead") comes from the car (and not externally from the refinery) -- it is very different from the fuel in the tank!

Normally, yes. The laws of physics always apply. However, the technique they are cheating people with, er, I mean, the technique they are emulating is a blended fuel model where a small amount of hydrogen mixed into the combustion air stream nets a greater improvement than burning either the gasoline or the hydrogen alone.

See my post above about Uli Kruger and Jonathan Goodwin, a mechanic from Kansas, who has doubled both the MPG and the horsepower of a Hummer by using hydrogen and diesel. At the bottom of This Page , where Goodwin claims his diesel-converted Hummer used hydrogen injected into the cylinders, displacing "half the diesel", doubling mileage and horsepower (and getting a 700 mile range out of the tank).

But there is no free lunch. As far as I can tell, the mileage claims don't take into account the fact that he's paying for the compressed hydrogen; the cost of the hydrogen should be converted into "diesel-equivalent" gallons and added to the total.

I don't think the hydrogen-producing jars under the hood will really work, but they are working on that principle, and able to fool people that way.

[trikkonceptz]

For a moment assume this product works and that you could control the outflow of the Hydrogen gas. Since most of our cars have computer controled fuel injectors, will there be a point where the injectors come close to shut off or shut off on their own because of increasing hydrogen gas?

I noticed some cars can and do cut back injectors so much the scangauge reads 9999, can you reach that point by increasing the hydrogen mix, theoretically?

Because if these converters are made a bit more efficiently, they can produce more gas without much more power output therefore allowing us to control flow and mixture to a point where our injectors are working at lets say 5-10% of their normal capacity, making a pretty impressive hybrid ..

Or is this theoretical BS ..

I mean you could run a pressure sensor that cuts power to the unit each time it reaches a safe pressure and run on a specified range to maintain optimal efficiency without storing high pressured hydrogen ...

Again sounds good in theory ...

[gteclass]

I have been looking into this browns gas stuff since i found out about electrolysis of water about 15 years ago. This is not new technology, if it does work it is one of the biggest conspiracies to keep gas mileage sandbagged ever. (Not that i wouldnt believe it, they are obviousely sandbagging gas mileage increases to keep the epa off the automakers backs considering a mid 80s dodge colt or honda/toyota economy car by average gets better gas mileage than todays "economy" cars) The idea really is good in theory. As far as it taking more input than it generates, I doubt this is really applicable as it only takes less than 2 volts to separate hydrogen and oxygen, its actually closer to 1.5v.

How about some posts about peoples actual experience with this stuff not just bickering about the theoretical ideas. I havent spent the money on a kit and will probly just make myself one. Ill post my results when i get it done.

[fshagan]

Originally Posted by gteclass

I have been looking into this browns gas stuff since i found out about electrolysis of water about 15 years ago. This is not new technology, if it does work it is one of the biggest conspiracies to keep gas mileage sandbagged ever. (Not that i wouldnt believe it, they are obviousely sandbagging gas mileage increases to keep the epa off the automakers backs considering a mid 80s dodge colt or honda/toyota economy car by average gets better gas mileage than todays "economy" cars) The idea really is good in theory. As far as it taking more input than it generates, I doubt this is really applicable as it only takes less than 2 volts to separate hydrogen and oxygen, its actually closer to 1.5v.

How about some posts about peoples actual experience with this stuff not just bickering about the theoretical ideas. I havent spent the money on a kit and will probly just make myself one. Ill post my results when i get it done.

I was surprised to find you are right ... the EPA does keep historical records back to 1985, and provides both the old method and the "new sticker" method of calculating mileage ... and the 1985 Dodge Colt manual transmission had what would now be a 31 city, 37 highway rating (new method; under the old method the numbers were 37/41). None of the "Big Three" have a non-hybrid car that comes close to that. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymanu.htm

The only posts I've seen are from people who have the devices, but haven't done "everything the instructions say" to improve mileage. It reminds me of the exercise devices on TV that promise you will lose weight if you use the device for 3 minutes a day and stick to their diet (sub-1000 calorie diet).

It would be interesting to see if you could generate enough H to make a difference. The only experiments I've read about that have any kind of hard data use compressed hydrogen from a tank and displace about half of the fuel in the cylinder.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Formula413

But an alternator doesn't shut itself off when the battery is full, it keeps right on spinning. As opposed to say the air conditioner which has a clutch that engages when the A/C is turned on and disengages when the A/C is turned off. Unless there is some huge gap in my understanding of how an alternator works.

Yes, there is a huge gap in your understanding :-) The principle is similar to the A/C clutch you mention. The A/C unit is a compressor: when it turns the engine does work compressing the refrigerant gas. Therefore you have a clutch to disconnect it when you don't want A/C.

Now with the alternator the same principle applies, except that the "clutch" is actually an electronic voltage regulator. (If you've worked on old cars, you've probably seen electromechanical regulators.) It controls the amount of energy the alternator takes from the engine & converts into electricity. If there's no electrical load, it only takes enough to overcome friction - if you were cranking it by hand, the alternator would spin freely. When there's a electrical demand, the regulator sends current through the alternator windings, causing it to create more electricity, which makes it hard to turn.

Bottom line: the more electricity you use, the harder the alternator is to turn. The engine has to supply more energy to turn it, and burns more gas to do so. THERE'S NO FREE LUNCH!