Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[rocket]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,



The gasoline has already had it's energy added, during the refining stage. If you had to refine it IN THE CAR, it would take a lot of energy to do so.

This device GENERATES the hydrogen IN THE VEHICLE, therefore it takes more energy -- from the vehicle -- than it can generate. So, it follows the laws of physics, yes -- and since the added energy (the "overhead") comes from the car (and not externally from the refinery) -- it is very different from the fuel in the tank!

To give you a basic chemistry/history lesson:

The energy in gas doesn't come from the refinery, it comes from the sun (fussion). The energy the sun produces is absorbed by plants and turned into chemical energy (photosysnthisis). Prehistoric animals (fish, dinosaurs, etc) ate the plants. they died and were burried where time/pressure turned them into oil. the refineries take the oil and through complicated proceses, create gas, diesel, kerosene, etc from the oil. they don't add engery, the just change the oil a little bit.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'm pretty familiar with the overall energy picture.

If you can show me a car that runs on crude petroleum, then you will convince me that there is no energy added by the refining process.

The point is: if the added hydrogen somehow affects the combustion of the gasoline or diesel in such a way that increases the efficiency of the engine to more than offset the energy lost during the process of splitting the water -- then this whole thing is legit.

Is it legit? Or is it snake oil?

[gteclass]

The phrase "Hydrogen Generator" is misused in this case. Hydrogen is never generated by these devices, it is simply pulled from water molecules by electrical potential. I do believe this is a viable way to improve the efficiency of gasoline engines, and at some point I will have to do some experiments which I can assure you will be done in as scientific a mannor as conditions allow. Currently I am testing this whole acetone thing. After I have a good few weeks of data on that then I will start working on the hydrogen experiment, but since you cant get reliable data by changing more than one thing at a time, the H2 experiment will have to wait.

PS. There is no energy added by refining, but the energy is more accessible in the refined product than in crude. Such is the h2 or acetone debate. Do these things make the chemical energy of gasoline more accessible, or do they at least make the thermodynamics in the engine more efficient. Those are the questions, both of which are completely independent from the theory of conservation of energy.

[ihatejoefitz]

Originally Posted by gteclass

Those are the questions, both of which are completely independent from the theory of conservation of energy.

It is the law of conservation of energy.

[gteclass]

Originally Posted by ihatejoefitz

It is the law of conservation of energy.

My bad man, your right, its a law. But my point was that this law only applies to self contained energy systems. The separation of water molecules takes a small ammount of energy. The combustion of hydrogen and oxygen to create water releases a large ammount of heat and pressure energy adding to the available activation energy for the combustion of gasoline vapors. This may not actually in itself create more energy in your engine, but it might improve the conditions under which the normal combustion reaction occurs reducing emmissions and improving thermodynamic efficiency. Of course with the faster combustion you should retard timing a bit.

When I get this thing going for myself I will transfer my Emanage from my eclipse to my mirage so I can build timing and fuel adjustments to tune this for best gains. Until then, lets encourage people to at least give all these ideas a shot instead of beating the hopes and dreams out of people as if we were an oil company.

[elepski]

I am building an HHO system of my own.. and in my research I keep hearing the "Law of conservation of energy" thrown around... GTEClass is right.. this only applies to a isolated closed system.. "A powers B and then B powers A"... This is not such a system.

My system will be electrically isolated from the trucks primary power. I will be adding a second high amperage charging system to power this device. Because it is only a supplement to the fuel, The primary power is derived from the petrol. So the scenario goes like this:


A = petrol

B = HHO Gas

C = Engine

D = Charging system

E = Electrical system

F = HHO system

A powers C
C provides energy to D
D converts motion to electricity
D supplies E with power
E provides F with power
F produces B
B + A powers C (But not needed to continue)

The key here is that petrol alone will sustain the HHO system reaction and the gas could just be vented and the motor will continue to run. The introduction of the gas to the system only improves the efficiency.

Hardware will determine the success of the system. You will want a high amp alternator that will produce a surplus over the amp draw the HHO device requirements.

There is question of whether or not the power draw of the alternator will counteract the addition of the HHO gas..

But there are also other factors that could push it into the black.. like solar cells and maybe even wind energy from the cars motion to supplement the system and help provide a positive influx of energy into the system.

Sorry for my rant... but i have been putting allot of thought into this and felt you might like to hear my conclusions...

in the end... theory is only going to take this so far... the rest is application and testing... until you actually try.. how can anyone say that it is not possible.

[Nerys]

The seperation of water molecules (IE O2 and H2) at least by electrolysis is extraordinarily energy intensive.

I applied a 7-8 amp load to my alternator (via a 3000watt 120 converter) and it almost shut down the V6 engine when that load kicked in !! its going to take a bit MORE than that to generate enough HHO gas to run your car.

Here is why HHO can never work at least purely electrically. By the time you have a battery pack large enough to go say 100 miles on HHO gas you ALREADY HAVE a battery large enough to go 200miles as a pure EV.

See the problem? How are you going to carry that amount of batteries. IF WE EV droolers can not get enough batteries for our cars how are you going to get TWICE as much power for your HHO car?

NOW if you have found a chemical way to release the HHO gas with far less electricity THEN you might have something here.

Its not an issue of conservation its an issue of POWER density. it just takes so much power.

Now if you generate that power at home and store the gas and transfer it to your car THEN it might work. but now your running into the same problem H2 people have. HOW do you store "enough" HHO gas to get any kind of range?

The law applies to ALL energy systems. What part of LAW OF THE UNIVERSE is not understood here. BUT them again law of conservation is NOT RELEVANT to powering cars.

You see ALL energy exchanges are lossy. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM requires MORE power in than Power out. SO discussing the law of conservation of mass and energy in this topic only shows a lack of understanding of what that law means.

The question is NOT does it take more energy in than out (the answer is ALWAYS yes until our laws of physics changes) the question is how much energy do YOU have to put into the system compared to what you get out AND most important of all more important than ANY other issue. What does that COST YOU.

If you have to put out 100 times the energy but that energy costs you 1/10th what gasoline does. WHO CARES :-)

SO the questions are:

HOW much does it cost you to produce HHO?
Is it less than buying Gasoline?
What methods are available to produce it?
HOW MUCH do you need to be able to power a car?
If you need to store it HOW do you do this?

How much energy is needed to make it versus how much you get from it is completely irrelevant. Any idea how much energy it took to make gasoline?

The ONLY relevant questions are CAN you use it and HOW MUCH does it COST to use it.

All other questions are silly and pointless except possibly how CLEAN is it but it usually ends up being the cheaper it is the cleaner it is. the CHEAPEST source of power we have is battery power and its the cleanest. Go Figure :-)

[elepski]

The HHO devices where never intended to run the motor on 100% gas.... the HHO devices are a SUPPLEMENT to the petrol and only help to allow a more complete burn. Running a car motor on 100% hydrogen can only be done safely from compressed hydrogen stored in a hydride cell. It is about the volume of Hydrogen gas needed to completely power a car.

AGAIN... HHO is a supplement not a replacement to petrol....

[Nerys]

Hmmm I am interested in replacing gasoline. Either way producing the gas FROM the petrol engine is a cloudy issue. I am not sure if it would take more efficiency from the gas engine than you would regain via the HHO.

Your not going to get a more complete burn the burn is already quite complete over 98% IIRC. What your going to do is cause the CAR to use less fuel since it will not have the HHO to burn. Not more complete just a supplement.

[elepski]

I am not really sure what you said there.. however. if you want to replace the petrol with another.. Hydrogen or CNG/LP are your real paths... as far as the HHO... They have been around for a while and i have heard only good thing about them... i am making my own only because it will be cheaper...