I want to get to the bottom of this ethanol killing my mpg

[dcb]

So Nerys, what is wrong with your car that it cant burn e10 efficiently? It should be able to get the same mpg, minus the btu density change of %10 ethanol. Got a wideband sensor to troubleshoot it with?

[Frank Lee]

I think some cars have a circuit that listens for driver rants about ethanol, which activates other circuits that cause all sorts of problems.

[gone-ot]

...it's a two-seater all-electric concept car (ala' Tesla).

...go to the Audi AG website and look for e-tron

...I only snatched their design sketch, there's a purdy red one shown.

[dwtaylorpdx]

Hmm. So based on my personal research and opinions which I'm sure may not be the same as others....

1. Most Ethanol is not being made in the US. A significant amount is being snuck in under NAFTA through Mexico from Brazil where they are still decimating the rain forest to grow cane to make the fuel. Many of the US ethanol plant

2. The reason you can't buy 100% ethanol in most places is because by adding the gasoline content only oil company resources may transport it or sell it without lots of overhead for "hazmat" or carrier charges...

3. It takes 1.3 units of Crude oil in the current system to manufacture 1 unit of ethanol.
(This includes all the fertilizer and power being used in current bulk process ethanol refining.)

4. There is a surplus of crude oil right now in the market, and a shortage of refineries supply and demand is a son of a gun to fight... The first refinery in nearly 20 years is being built in North Dakota... To use the Canadian crude oil.

5. There is not a single battery technology in the market that does not actually use more energy to make than they save. This includes the high expensive and exotic processes to make the various lithium tech batteries then recycle them. They cost more to recycle than produce when you follow them to the end of their life, right now most go into landfills (In china who also manufactures all most all the hybrid vehicle batteries). Battery tech is still the limiter on a viable long term plug-in based auto technology, as much as I'd love to have one for my commute.

At the end of the day I think the key is simple economy and diversification of power sources. I'm not expecting 1 technology to replace standard internal combustion engines, rather a suite of solutions that each take a bite. For lower mile drivers a plug in solution would work now because they would get great life expectancy out of the battery packs (With good chargers not the lame ones in use in most systems now) simply because they don't wear out the batteries as fast deep discharging them.

On the other hand the higher mile driver, a LNG vehicle is way better because of the beating they give the cars.

For very small neighborhood or inner city vehicles the Hydrogen option is awesome for its lower pollution levels but higher cost to build and increased perceived handling issues.
(Hydrogen is actually WAY safer than natural gas.)

BTW on 100 octane unleaded race gas my Jeep Wrangler 4 cyl gets 22mpg, on E10 it gets 15, On E85 it gets 10 the computer is just too stupid to handle the AFR of alcohol, I've played a lot with it..l.

Race gas does not contain VOC limiters, it mostly does have 7 to 10 % alcohol as an oxygenation additive to replace the MTBE which is pretty much banned now. Without the VOC limiters it just vaporizes WAYYY better and burns better. Dump a 1/4 cup of Sunoco Race Gas on the ground and its gone in seconds pump gas almost doesn't evaporate.

In Oregon in rural areas we can by non alcohol fuel for "farm" use.
When I use it I immediately get 40 more miles on a 18 gallon tank of fuel its not a small hard to measure thing. (I have some test strips that I got from a local chem supplier to detect alcohol to double check.)

Oh well just thinking out loud.

Dave

[gone-ot]

...you can still find Sunoco 260 "Race Gas" these days? Where?

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

It wins for me. I should calculate how much money I've saved.

It wins for you, but not from a pure economic standpoint. You're effectively getting welfare checks. Not that I would refuse them, were they offered to me! My STi would llllooovvveee some nice, cheap E85.

[Frank Lee]

Do you want to examine the govt subsidies for oil and include that in the calculations? I hope so.

[dwtaylorpdx]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...you can still find Sunoco 260 "Race Gas" these days? Where?

I work at a race shop as my weekend sanity job to get me away from computers we used to sell Sunoco but now we sell another brand,
cheaper and works just as good for road racing, and I am suddenly at a complete brain fade on the brand name.... Arrrrrg.

Most of what we sell is Leaded 110 octane or 104 Unleaded.
I think the 260 got dropped casue it depended on MTBE and Sunoco
had to quit using it..

Dave

[Nerys]

5. There is not a single battery technology in the market that does not actually use more energy to make than they save. This includes the high expensive and exotic processes to make the various lithium tech batteries then recycle them. They cost more to recycle than produce when you follow them to the end of their life, right now most go into landfills (In china who also manufactures all most all the hybrid vehicle batteries). Battery tech is still the limiter on a viable long term plug-in based auto technology, as much as I'd love to have one for my commute.

This is poppy cock.

An E95 nimh battery costs $4500 FULL RETAIL. its good for 250,000 miles to 80% so designed RIGHT in the right car should last the average person AT LEAST 350,000 miles OR MORE or 25-30 years minimum before you have to replace it.

THis data is coroberated by testing on RAV4EV E95 packs with over 150,000 miles on the battery (ZERO degradation in 10 years and 150,000 miles so far)

There is no way in HELL this is not more back economically than was put into it.

Just no way in hell.

Consider the average today car is kept for 9 years. that means you would go through roughly 3-4 REGULAR CARS with all there hardware engines oils fluids and parts in the place of a SINGLE E95 powered aluminum and plastic car.

Where ever you got your data its totally fubar'd

On the EV side.

30 years time

1 Motor
1 Controller
1 Battery

The average Gasoline car

30 Years time

3 Engines
3 Transmissions
3 Fuel Systems
3 Exhaust Systems
3 Alternators
3 PS Pumps
3 of everything else in the engine
3 Emissions systems
60 Oil Changes
3 Radiators and all its fluids over 30 years

Plus misc other fluids over 30 years.

PLUS 3 WHOLE CARS and any drivetrain parts not in the EV they might need over 9 years each.

are you SERIOUSLY TELLING ME that ALL OF THAT is less "energy spent" than ONE SINGLE BATTERY PACK?

thats a joke right?

a SINGLE BATTERY PACK takes more energy than ALL OF THAT ?

thats not even counting the roughly 16,500 GALLONS OF GASOLINE you will burn in that time.

Your joking right?

[Nerys]

Originally Posted by dwtaylorpdx

Most of what we sell is Leaded 110 octane or 104 Unleaded.
I think the 260 got dropped casue it depended on MTBE and Sunoco
had to quit using it..

Dave

Is the 104 unleaded with or without ethanol?

How much 104 unleaded would I need to mix with 84 unleaded to get 87-90 octane regular?