Insight 4x4

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by Hugh-Falls

It is well known that an Insight will travel quite well on 13 HP. Two Etek motors combined develop about 12 HP and up.

The Insight will cruise quite well on 5-10HP depending on conditions, but it would take forever and a day to get up to speed.



My Insight sees 3000RPM if I want to accelerate at the same pace as the masses, which I do in traffic. This suggests around 35HP. Yesterday, I merged onto the interstate at 3500RPM and full assist, suggesting 50HP, but perhaps you'd fire up the gas engine for such an occasion. These figures are for a 2000lb car + driver. Add batteries, and you'll need to add a little more power.

According to the above torque curve, the Insight makes 12HP around 1100RPM.

[Staska]

Originally Posted by Hugh-Falls

STASKA: Thank you for your suggestions.

Please note that Poulsen on their web site say that the system "WILL BE AVAILABLE" and quote a tentative price of $8600. Like the abomidable snowman there are a lot of news reports about it but unlike the yetti, there are few if any sightings. The picture you show us looks to me like a good "photoshop" job.

Just like another wheel, the drive adapter I propose is to be mounted on the hub between the brake drum and inside the existing Insight wheel and is to extend over the brake drum and past the tire to carry the drive pulley/sprocket between the fenderwell and inner side of the tire.

I create a sketch of your idea. Is it correct ?

I show poulsen as as possible drive, not as current product. It is possible to mount etek style motor with addition hub for gearing on side beam of poulsen. It will make less unsprung weight also. And on top of it You could make a nice shell. Or in case with insight - go for even narrow tire ant mount it under standart whell cover..

Btw - price for poulsen motors is 3500, 8500 is for full kit with battery.

[RobertSmalls]

Hugh, are you good with Photoshop? Or MSPaint? There's not much room back there, but perhaps it's enough.





Please excuse the aero disaster. You can see coroplast running from my gas tank to my spare tire well in the first pic, but I really have no coverage to the right of the muffler.

[Hugh-Falls]

RobertSmalls: Thank you for your "Insightful" analysis. Your experiences driving the Insight pretty much parallel my own although I drive a CVT. However, I am sure that driving an MT car does give you a better feel for what is going on than with the CVT where most of the thinking is done by the machine itself.

Generally, the ICE would be running at all times and the Eteks would be throttled through an additional accelerator pedal located near where a clutch pedal would be. For MT, some kind of multi-function gas pedal could be worked up. Adding the twin Eteks here would serve the same function as adding another IMA motor that could be engaged or not, each through a simple dog clutch. To keep from burning up the CVT start clutch it is good driving practice to make sure that all shift changes are done in the 0-4mph range, so dog clutch shifting there should work out OK. An MT Insight probably could take better advantage of this added assist than a CVT but for low speed driving around town it should prove to be useful enough to be worth the effort.

[Hugh-Falls]

Staska: Thank you for the colorful sketch. It is correct and a lot clearer than a word description.

You are right about the unsprung weight being a problem with the Poulsen setup. They probably will have to use a heavy duty truck/trailer tire to prevent blowouts. There is another problem also, and that is the one concerning the torque arm connecting the wheel-mounted-motor to the chassis. This arm must be capable of changing length because the car's suspension probably travels a different path than the arm's swing.

An Etek motor weight is about 23# bare, add some kind of torque multiplication/speed reduction (4:1 or more) and you are back up to that 35-40# range. If you move the Etek motor up the arm toward the pivot, you will lessen the unsprung weight and if you have a large pulley mounted to the wheel and small at the Etek motor you could probably get about 23:80 at most which is probably not enough. You might need some additional multiplication/reduction.

[Hugh-Falls]

RobertSmalls: Your photos are much appreciated. They are a lot better than what I have been working with. Thank you very much.

As far as I know, "photoshop" means that an existing photo has been tampered with in some way to make it appear to be something other than what it was when it was taken. I think the Poulsen motor was skillfully drawn or transferred on to a stock photo of a car.

Honda does not allow for much wasted space in any of their desgns. When Honda added the CVT version of the Insight, they had to find room for the transmission control module and they wound up placing it under an added lump on the passenger side floor. It may be just a Honda engineering tradition of tidiness.

My hope is that it is possible to find space for the pulley/sprocket by moving the tire/wheel out and lessening the clearance space both at the fender well side and at the fender skirt and by adding a wheel spacer. It may become necessary to modify the fender skirt which is plastic and not a critical structural menber.

Also, there appears to be some space between the rear bumper cover and the rear aluminum body panel and it is in this space and below it in which the motor assembly on each side is to be located. Again, not much space but clear of any critical structural members that might interfere.

Your photos show the end of the tubular rear axle beam trailing arm into which an internally threaded plug will be welded for a Heim rod end. One end of a connecting link between the trailing arm and the motor assembly will be achored there. This link will maintain a near constant distance between drive and driven pulleys for a near constant belt tension.

[Staska]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

Hugh, are you good with Photoshop? Or MSPaint? There's not much room back there, but perhaps it's enough.





Please excuse the aero disaster. You can see coroplast running from my gas tank to my spare tire well in the first pic, but I really have no coverage to the right of the muffler.

Could you post the whole rear suspension of insight ? I think, there may be one elegant solution

[Staska]

Originally Posted by Hugh-Falls

Staska: Thank you for the colorful sketch. It is correct and a lot clearer than a word description.

You are right about the unsprung weight being a problem with the Poulsen setup. They probably will have to use a heavy duty truck/trailer tire to prevent blowouts. There is another problem also, and that is the one concerning the torque arm connecting the wheel-mounted-motor to the chassis. This arm must be capable of changing length because the car's suspension probably travels a different path than the arm's swing.

An Etek motor weight is about 23# bare, add some kind of torque multiplication/speed reduction (4:1 or more) and you are back up to that 35-40# range. If you move the Etek motor up the arm toward the pivot, you will lessen the unsprung weight and if you have a large pulley mounted to the wheel and small at the Etek motor you could probably get about 23:80 at most which is probably not enough. You might need some additional multiplication/reduction.

Yes, you are rigth about possible solution with eteks. I also thought oabout positioning etek even on end of trailing arm. It would make unspung weight close to nilll. For mount point - i will try to show it with my fiat, and some skech-up later.

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by Hugh-Falls

As far as I know, "photoshop" means that an existing photo has been tampered with in some way to make it appear to be something other than what it was when it was taken. I think the Poulsen motor was skillfully drawn or transferred on to a stock photo of a car.

This technology can be used for good OR evil. You could use PhotoShop (or MSPaint, which I believe is the program that Staska sketched in) to annotate an existing photo, or to illustrate something you haven't prototyped yet.

Hugh, surely you plan on shifting to N and shutting down the ICE while using your rear wheel drive. Otherwise, you could simply make like Peter Perkins (and me) and run the IMA motor off of grid-charged batteries. It's not the most efficient, and it will never let you kick the gasoline habit, but it's cheap and easy.

Staska, this illustration came from the Majestic Honda parts catalog. Is this what you need?

[Staska]

I have found it by myself: