Missed it- public comments for mandatory auto black boxes

[razor02097]

Cops have all kind of toys they shoot at you to get your speed. those toys would hold up in the court of law so they don't need the black box information to know you were speeding.

[bestclimb]

Originally Posted by razor02097

Cops have all kind of toys they shoot at you to get your speed. those toys would hold up in the court of law so they don't need the black box information to know you were speeding.

They tag you the once for speeding, bam reasonable cause. Your whole drive cycle is now free for the download. Including the stop sign you did not come to a full and complete stop at. Oh by the way did you signal every lane change?. Of course if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

[razor02097]

Originally Posted by bestclimb

They tag you the once for speeding, bam reasonable cause. Your whole drive cycle is now free for the download. Including the stop sign you did not come to a full and complete stop at. Oh by the way did you signal every lane change?. Of course if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

I'm curious how you can find out about using a turn signal and how would they know where a stop sign is by raw data in a black box? Even if the GPS has a black box... lets say..... the best GPS is still 3 yards or more off.

I'm sorry but speeding is not probable cause for a search. They still need consent, a warrant or they need to arrest you. All those "illegal searches" you hear about are usually from someone that inadvertently gave the officer consent to search.

[MTXA]

The data collected would be great to pick out intermittent driveability problems that don't set codes depending on the time length period of collection. Another $5k for the latest SnapOn scantool.

[t vago]

Originally Posted by razor02097

I'm curious how you can find out about using a turn signal and how would they know where a stop sign is by raw data in a black box? Even if the GPS has a black box... lets say..... the best GPS is still 3 yards or more off.

My 2005 Magnum uses CAN bus data to actuate the turn signals. That can very easily be stored inside a mandatory black box. Steering wheel turn rates and position are also turned into CAN data, which can also be easily be stored in a mandatory black box. This isn't fevered imaginings from some tin-foil nutter, dude. This is from the factory service manual.

Originally Posted by razor02097

I'm sorry but speeding is not probable cause for a search. They still need consent, a warrant or they need to arrest you. All those "illegal searches" you hear about are usually from someone that inadvertently gave the officer consent to search.

So you're a cop, now, huh? Tell me, then, why should you be easily allowed to get all this information?

[bestclimb]

a 100 dollar navi knows where speed limits change, it could easily know where stop signs are. To think that a black box would not be connected to a GPS and a database of road signs is naive.

A great many cars computers already know steering angle, cabin heat settings and gobs of other things. It is not a stretch to think a "black box" could know blinker status.

Really you don't think that "we observed you speeding" is not probable cause to at least find the extent of that speeding? When "we observed you wondering in your lane" is probable cause to pull you over and have you do gymnastics (not to mention pat you down as an officer safety measure).

[nemo]

IMO they will be used mainly to fix blame in accidents. Some safety benefit from real world crash information may be obtained, who and how the information will be used is still not clear. One area they are looking at is seat position which will help verify, who was actual driving the car. Seat belts, airbag, ABS and other information (link in post # 8).

But it will take on a life of its own and every couple of years, more data will be required. The system will become more complex and the costs will increase. But we'll all be safer right?

[razor02097]

Originally Posted by t vago

My 2005 Magnum uses CAN bus data to actuate the turn signals. That can very easily be stored inside a mandatory black box. Steering wheel turn rates and position are also turned into CAN data, which can also be easily be stored in a mandatory black box. This isn't fevered imaginings from some tin-foil nutter, dude. This is from the factory service manual.



So you're a cop, now, huh? Tell me, then, why should you be easily allowed to get all this information?

I'm not sure how you change lanes but when I do the steering wheel doesn't move much more than the normal corrective actions of a road I.E. bumps, small curves, centering up in the lane, etc.

I ain't a cop bud... I just know if a cop asks to search I say "Officer I do not consent to searches" then keep my mouth shut.

Originally Posted by bestclimb

a 100 dollar navi knows where speed limits change, it could easily know where stop signs are. To think that a black box would not be connected to a GPS and a database of road signs is naive.

A great many cars computers already know steering angle, cabin heat settings and gobs of other things. It is not a stretch to think a "black box" could know blinker status.

Really you don't think that "we observed you speeding" is not probable cause to at least find the extent of that speeding? When "we observed you wondering in your lane" is probable cause to pull you over and have you do gymnastics (not to mention pat you down as an officer safety measure).

Ever notice how a lot of those GPS units are wildly inaccurate? I know because I have 3. Speed limit changes can take months. Then you have to use a computer to update so those black boxes have to have a way to OTA the updates.

Getting pulled over for a traffic violation does not automatically give probable cause to search your vehicle. Many drivers have a GPS which shows your max speed. How many officers pull them over then charge them with speeding based on that GPS reading?

[bestclimb]

Originally Posted by razor02097

I'm not sure how you change lanes but when I do the steering wheel doesn't move much more than the normal corrective actions of a road I.E. bumps, small curves, centering up in the lane, etc.

I ain't a cop bud... I just know if a cop asks to search I say "Officer I do not consent to searches" then keep my mouth shut.

They will not need to ask. They will have probable cause. "we observed you speeding we have probable cause to pull your black box data to confirm it". If they have probable cause then they don't need your permission. Any other information that is gleaned during an officers duty is admissible as evidence.

Originally Posted by razor02097

Ever notice how a lot of those GPS units are wildly inaccurate? I know because I have 3. Speed limit changes can take months. Then you have to use a computer to update so those black boxes have to have a way to OTA the updates.

Won't that be fun, keeping your mandated box updated. Then dealing with incorrect data causing tickets after a simple traffic stop.

Originally Posted by razor02097

Getting pulled over for a traffic violation does not automatically give probable cause to search your vehicle. Many drivers have a GPS which shows your max speed. How many officers pull them over then charge them with speeding based on that GPS reading?

Pulling black box data after a violation is a very common move for the FAA, what makes you so sure that it would not implemented in such a way as to allow law enforcement that same leeway?

Your GPS is not required to be tested, certified, or meet any performance standards.

FAA certified GPS has a Required Navigational Performance (RPN). If for some reason the GPS is not performing to that standard it illuminates an anuncator. If data is going to be collected on the road, it will have to be certifiable correct, not hard to include a notation if the GPS was performing to a legally admissible standard.

The inverse of this article will also be true once a government mandated (and certified to some CFR) box is installed.

[t vago]

Hell, that's okay. They already have wireless maintenance doohickeys that plug into the vehicle's OBD port (at least, Chrysler does). Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to include a wireless OBD port in every car, instead. Then, the police wouldn't even need to ask. They'd just ping the car they suspect of speeding.

Ohio, BTW, is one state where the speeding laws require that the officer in question visually determine whether a car appears to be speeding, before he can verify it with laser or radar means. Pretty shifty, I would say. "Hey, look! That car _appears_ to be speeding! Let's ping it with this police OBD scanner!"