Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[metromizer]

Originally Posted by ttoyoda

Can you give us a hint to this new tech? maybe a link somewhere? Please?

Laser Ignition Fussion-Fission Energy (LIFE) Essentially a fusion-fission hybrid reactor. Don't wrinkle up your nose until you read the rest of this...

no links that I could locate, too new I guess.

Here's the story: Nuclear power plants for electricity is really being given a second look in this country (USA), and for good reason. China is bringing up ultra-dirty coal fired powerplants at a rate of 1 per 4 days. India about 1 per week. Look at the air quality there during this summer's olymics, you don't want that in your backyard, and this planet is everyone's backyard!

Nuclear power from fission is old news, the positives have always been no CO2 output, no air polution, plentiful fuel supply for relatively cheap electricity. The huge, and I mean HUGE negatives have always included well founded safety concerns from more than one angle, lots of nasty waste to deal with (waste stream to guard and store), danger of a runaway Cherynoble-type meltdown, and developing counties can use powerplant-grade fuel to help spawn their own weapons program (huge political ramifications) as conventional fuel is only a couple steps away from being weapons grade.

Good news! This new technology is being looked at right now, that make this operation much more attractive. LIFE uses laser power to start and maintain the reaction. Their are several really cool aspects, such as it uses very low grade fuel, no enrichment processing needed, so the technology is safe to export. The fuel is almost completely consumed (a current spent and no longer reaction sustainable fuel rod is less than 25% consumed). The new tecnology says 1 cubic foot of low grade fuel would be reduced to 1/2 gram of ash, dangerous for only about 100 years. A single Yucca Mountain facility could hold generations worth of waste from hundreds of plants, where today Yucca mountain is almost fully subscribed with waiting waste from conventional plants. There is no critical mass, essentially the laser excits and maintains the event. Turn off the laser, and the event stops (fails safe). Old fuel rods can be mined and reclaimed, their unused fuel throw on the nuclear BBQ and energy extracted! How cool is that?

Who knows, maybe in 2030 the first plant will be operational...

I've said too much... the black helicopters are circling.... j/k it's public domain stuff

[JamesLaugesen]

Originally Posted by metromizer

Laser Ignition Fussion-Fission Energy (LIFE) Essentially a fusion-fission hybrid reactor. Don't wrinkle up your nose until you read the rest of this...

no links that I could locate, too new I guess.

That sounds like inertial confinement fusion, sometimes refered to as IFE regarding energy/power plants. But that would make it Laser Initertial Fusion Energy.
If it is unique from ICF I'm real interested in finding out more!

Do you know where the Fusion-Fission part of the name comes from? fission has been an inertial driver in ICF (ie, a hydrogen bomb), but never heard of fission and lasers. Unless a fission reactor is powering the lasers.

Wait sorry going too off topic haha.

EDIT: link if anyone's interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia...inement_fusion - this might look familar to the presentation.

[metromizer]

Originally Posted by JamesLaugesen

That sounds like inertial confinement fusion...

not exactly, it's one of the things you do with ICF after you've proven you can achieve ignition on a repeatable basis, which will happen in 2010.

Google "National Ignition Facility"

[ttoyoda]

Don't wrinkle up your nose until you read the rest of this...

I won't, I'm smart enough to know that there are LOTS of things I know nothing about.

AFAIK, the only reason we HAVE any nuclear waste just sitting around wasting heat is because Jimmy Carter banned the re-processing of waste into new useful material back in the 1970s. Ah yes, here it is, he is even still proud of it.
Statement from Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter on Effort to Reclassify Nuclear Waste
search for:
"As president I instituted a ban on commercial reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel in the United States, in part to avoid aggravating the waste problem."
Because, you know, If we just let waste sit around, instead of recycling it, it won't be a problem!
Maybe if there had been more than ONE swamp rabbit, we would not have these issues today.

[Concrete]

what happened to the HHO?
did anyone get it to work, or even try?

[TES111]

I hear a lot about thermodynamics and the amount of energy it takes to produce the HHO. I know nothing about this other than what I have read here. It simply seems that everyone has forgotten how to ask the right questions and then only answer them with factual information.

These next questions are not argumentative and is not intended to spark a debate. I only wish to know with answers and not with a known scammers you tube video or web page. (PROOF)

Has anyone considered how much energy it takes to first pump oil out of the ground (not find new oil and pump it) ,get it to a tanker, have the tanker get it here, have it moved to the refinery, have it refined, have it transported to the pump and then have power to the pump to get it in the car?
(fuel costs in burn for transportation only)

How much energy does it take to make 1 gallon of gas?

What is the amount of energy that can be released from that gallon of gas?
(in a normally aspirated ICE at sea level)

How much energy does it take to create an equal amount of HHO?
(to release the same amount of energy in an ICE at sea level)

If creating HHO could be done via battery back up in a vehicle what kind of gains could be made with a 15% HHO 85% gasoline ratio?
(premise- Solar energy was used to charge the batteries)

...yes I know that solar energy is not always reliable....no wait it is.....it is always there in the morning. Its the damn clouds

I have also seen comments about the "HHO scam" being that you are only tricking your engine into running at lean of peak performance. Aircraft pilots do this during cruise to save fuel all the time. My point would be LOP operations are not bad as long as you have maintained acceptable margins in you ECT or engine cylinder temperatures. Maybe thats all you need to do when driving in cruise conditions. Or maybe the HHO is causing the engines computer to think it needs to run lean because it does not know that the HHO is improving the performance. After all the only thing a computer knows is what we tell it......

Final thought....myth busters did run a car on hydrogen gas with no gasoline present. So the theory stands that HHO and gasoline do both work in an engine. Now the trick is to prove that the HHO can be made extremely cheaply. And be produced in a car in large enough amounts to seriously offset the amount of gasoline needed to run the ICE. I dont see how this HHO can increase MPG. I do see how it could reduce the amount of gas you put through your engine....ah hem.....wouldn't that give you greater range with the same amount of fuel in your tank?

I know nothing

[tangomar]

Mythbusters forgot to add an electrolyte if they were trying to reproduce a DC electrolyzer. If they were trying to reproduce Stan Mayer's system, it is so complicated that only few people have successfully done.

HHO doesn't change the energy balance (total amount of energy available), I mean it changes it but the amount you put is negligible.
What HHO does is to change the kinetic of the reaction: gasoline is made of various different hydrocarbons some light and some heavy.
Normally we burn the light but we discard the heavy ones.

HHO increases the speed of flame front and acts as catalytic element for heavier hydrocarbons.

If you want to read (and it is a very insightful description) about it there is a nice defense argument prepared by Mike. It starts from page 19 after the report prepared by the accuser.
Scientific Report of HOD - HHOINFO

Still HHO has many problems, mostly safety. You are on your own when you take this road.

[Mustang Dave]

If HHO generators REALLY improved fuel economy, wouldn't the "Big 3" be installing them on their vehicles to meet and/or beat CAFE standards?
IMBFOS, but from my point of view, HHO is SNAKE OIL!

[dwtaylorpdx]

Originally Posted by TES111

I hear a lot about thermodynamics and the amount of energy it takes to produce the HHO. I know nothing about this other than what I have read here. It simply seems that everyone has forgotten how to ask the right questions and then only answer them with factual information.

These next questions are not argumentative and is not intended to spark a debate. I only wish to know with answers and not with a known scammers you tube video or web page. (PROOF)

Has anyone considered how much energy it takes to first pump oil out of the ground (not find new oil and pump it) ,get it to a tanker, have the tanker get it here, have it moved to the refinery, have it refined, have it transported to the pump and then have power to the pump to get it in the car?
(fuel costs in burn for transportation only)

## Tankers form the middle east burn the crude oil to run, Middle eastern crude oil or "Light Sweet Crude" looks like dark diesel.

How much energy does it take to make 1 gallon of gas?

## a lot of the energy comes from the actual process to refine the fuel, its mostly heat and pressure.

What is the amount of energy that can be released from that gallon of gas?
(in a normally aspirated ICE at sea level)

How much energy does it take to create an equal amount of HHO?
(to release the same amount of energy in an ICE at sea level)

## Its very high, or very slow depending on the system used, I've often thought the answer would be solar cells, that hook straight to a liquid source and a gas separator, volume would be low but you could use the median between the interstate highways as the farm space. Small muscle lots of points doing the work.

If creating HHO could be done via battery back up in a vehicle what kind of gains could be made with a 15% HHO 85% gasoline ratio?
(premise- Solar energy was used to charge the batteries)

## The cubic feet of gas created is currently too slow at that size gadget to do you any good.

...yes I know that solar energy is not always reliable....no wait it is.....it is always there in the morning. Its the damn clouds

I have also seen comments about the "HHO scam" being that you are only tricking your engine into running at lean of peak performance. Aircraft pilots do this during cruise to save fuel all the time. My point would be LOP operations are not bad as long as you have maintained acceptable margins in you ECT or engine cylinder temperatures. Maybe thats all you need to do when driving in cruise conditions. Or maybe the HHO is causing the engines computer to think it needs to run lean because it does not know that the HHO is improving the performance. After all the only thing a computer knows is what we tell it......

Final thought....myth busters did run a car on hydrogen gas with no gasoline present. So the theory stands that HHO and gasoline do both work in an engine. Now the trick is to prove that the HHO can be made extremely cheaply. And be produced in a car in large enough amounts to seriously offset the amount of gasoline needed to run the ICE. I dont see how this HHO can increase MPG. I do see how it could reduce the amount of gas you put through your engine....ah hem.....wouldn't that give you greater range with the same amount of fuel in your tank?

I know nothing

Good questions, could not find straight answers to many of them.

Dave

[tangomar]

Originally Posted by Mustang Dave

If HHO generators REALLY improved fuel economy, wouldn't the "Big 3" be installing them on their vehicles to meet and/or beat CAFE standards?
IMBFOS, but from my point of view, HHO is SNAKE OIL!

HHO as water injection both reduce engine wearing.
80% of the gasoline is wasted as partially burned and it gets recycled in the PCV and absorbed by oil. Some sticks to the cylinders.
All this crap shorten the life of your engine. HHO and water injection keep it clean so probably it would last much more.

I understand instead that using HHO is difficult.
1. where do you inject it? If you inject it in the air intake you might risk that some of it gets also in the driver cabin. Not good (explosions and OH- radicals).
2. you have to drastically change the ECU since right now it works at stoichiometric in closed loop while when you produce more O2 you cannot do that (the mix is already very clean before the cat). So everything must be re-engineered.

Instead they give you hybrids with 2 engines increasing the probability of failures. Don't get me wrong I love the idea to recover the energy lost in the negative inertial variations.