Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Good. I was hoping it wasn't ass.

I wonder if it should be capitalized in that use?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Nerys

Whats an otto cycle engine? Energy balance is irrelevant. entropy makes it pretty clear its always lossy whether its gasoline or hydrogen. To say otherwise only reveals cluelessness in basic science (NOT saying your saying that just saying) I can only produce hydrogen one way on my budget and its one of the least efficient means. Electrolysis. Thankfully the only value that matters ie COST of fuel per mile is very low. IE electricity is dirt cheap compared to any other fuel by many orders of magnitudes.

I don't have the means to create scientific data or process it. I don't even know if it will work. on paper it SHOULD but I do not know if the gains will exceed the cost of electricity to recharge the batteries to run the generator. its cheap enough to try so I hope one day to actually try it and see what happens. If nothing else it will be fun to do and I can come up with other creative uses for a hydrogen supply :-)

Yup. I need to lose a total of 193.8 pounds minimum. (to sky dive I need to be under 225 I am a big critter but I am pretty sure 225 is doable)

So far I have lost 41.8 pounds since september 18th. I am going strong losing on average 1 pound per day (with a few stalls and what not inbetween)

My sister started at 331 and is currently down to 315.

I hope to be under 225 before next summer. I am one bull headed mother F*&(*#&$ especially now that I have a plan that is working.

My issue started with college. I was around 200-225 pounds no fat on me. I ate like a horse I mean 3000-4000 calorie meals and I had an activity level to support such a diet.

When I went to college I continued to grow (another 2-3 inches) but my activity level went to near ZERO compared to what it was (thanks computers and always on internet) but I continued to eat like I had always eaten for all my life.

I exploded. gained some 125 pounds in less than 9 months and got all the stretch marks to show for that. I gained another 50 pounds or so before I "started" to get things under control.

My work life after that made fast food a normal occurrence for me. I spent 3-4 hours DRIVING daily so I tended to eat on the go. I stopped gaining but also was not losing.

Tried every diet none work NONE sustain. Finally I said screw them all and made my own diet. I treated it like I treat most problems. Like a math problem. 1 pound is 3500 calories. PERIOD. you eat 3500 more than you burn you are 1 pound heavier. you burn 3500 more than you need and you are 1 pound lighter.

so I designed my own on the fly low calorie diet. I started lowing my calorie intake starting at 1500. I got down to 800-900 a day and stopped for fear of mal nutrition.

Now I stick to around 800 a day or less but I compensate for this by eating MASSIVE quantities of low calorie nutrient rich foods. Any non starchy veggie I can get my hands on especially Tomato's and Spinach. I can eat an entire tomato and its only 30 calories. I can eat and ENTIRE BAG of spinach (yumm yumm YUMMM!!) cooked up and its less than 35 calories. toss in some fish chicken or turkey hear and there to keep boredom away.

I made a plate of food this morning that was TOWERING. I mean it was so big I was even surprised and no way in hell was I going to finish it and I can chow down. A pint of Chicken Chop suey. He says its 94 calories I don't believe it so I count it as 200 just to be safe. half a bag of spinach and whole onion and a mess or portobella mushrooms and a little bit of egg beaters to mix in. it had to be 2 pounds of food at least. 350 calories and I did not finish. have about 25% of it for later.

I am going to murder this fat if its the last thing I do. I am SICK AND TIRED of being fat.

I am a very bright fellow and its murder to find bright colored clothing in my size (58inch waist 62 inch chest) I am so fat I almost got tits for god sake.

as of september 18th that changes. and my metro will love me for it too :-) plus I should gain maybe 1mpg out of it. WELL worth it. Thats a FREE $46 in my pocket every year once I get rid of the weight. Yeah I will take that.

Ironic? No not even a little bit. Disgusting and massively wasteful? YES.

Otto is the last name of the gentleman who invented the spark-ignited internal combustion engine ( in contrast to the gentleman who invented the compression ignition engine,Mr.Diesel ).
From your use of the term entropy,your background in thermodynamics would suggest that you more than most,would have a deep appreciation for energy balance,efficiencies,and the inherent entropy associated therein.
I'm delighted that you mention that electrolysis is the least efficient,most expensive, and highest entropy form of producing hydrogen.
You're producing hydrogen from storage batteries in the car,charged from the grid?
Please excuse the digression,I'm just trying to come up to speed on this topic.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by tangomar

There isn't any change in the chemical energy. The energy is there in the gasoline but not used since you have too little time to burn it.
Adding hydrogen (even if small quantities as 1-2 lpm that you can produce with just 10 A -> 130W) increases the flame speed and it allows more fuel to transfer heat to air in the time allowed to produce work (from the spark to the moment where the cilinder speed is faster than the flame front.
The energy balance is almost the same but more heat is transferred rather than been expelled and finish burning in the cat or get recycled.

Just a little bit. Would you dring some water with 1ppm of arsenic? Consider that the maximum quantity allowed in drinking water is 3-20 ug/l...

Some results are summarized in here (sorry for spamming):
http://www.breathablefuel.com/hhopaper.rtf

tangomar, thanks or the science.
I printed the linked document and will study at home to catch up to everyone else.Much thanks.

[tangomar]

aerohead, remember that if you have an fuel injected car with ECM/ECU you have to trick it if you change the combustion in any way.
In fact transferring more heat will require less fuel -> more oxygen at the cat.
Then the ECU will react adding fuel until it gets to stoichiometric again. It is a continuous war that doesn't see many winners.

Even adding EFI (analog or digital) might not work for you.
I am going to try the volo chip (FS2). I will see if I can get 5% more with just acetone/xylene/oil. If it works I'll put again more performing spark plugs (the halo worked well). If it will work well I'll add HHO.

But contrary to all the other mods, combustion mods are very difficult to obtain (even if they would be the most effective in term of results) due to the computer feedback system and continuous learning it has.

Good luck (and be safe in the first place: flame arrester, double bubbler, relay switch...)

[Nerys]

"I'm delighted that you mention that electrolysis is the least efficient,most expensive, and highest entropy form of producing hydrogen."

well most expensive is incorrect. Electrolysis is by far the cheapest. Very little materials are required and electricity is dirt cheap.

ie the REASON end users go with electrolysis is because its the ONLY viable means of "end user" hydrogen production and its simple and very cheap. The biggest problem is end users trying to use CAR POWER to power the generator.

And yes as the next few posters mentions the COMPUTERS in the cars will resist and fight you. If you only have one upstream O2 sensor you have a fighting chance but if you have up and down stream sensors its going to be dicey since you will be sending "triggers" to the computer that will result in it RICHING up your fuel mixture even though it does not need it. Some think this is intentional but I think its just because of the triggers the "simple" computers look for.

[pgfpro]

Questions, once you produce hydrogen, what do you store it in and how do you transfer it to the storage tank?

What weight will the storage tank be? At what pressure will the hydrogen be stored at? How far will you be able to travel with (x) amount weight and
(x) pressure of the tank.

Is it legal to do all these things?

[Nerys]

there are not likely any laws covering this but its also 100% impractical. you can't really STORE hydrogen easily affordably or effectively. People who make these things just USE IT in real time. ie as its generated its squirted into the engine.

[tangomar]

With AC currents it is possible to reach electrolysis yields > Faraday (that is a limit of the DC current).
In fact once the ions are formed on a DC method, they tend to accumulate by the cathode/anode creating de facto an inverse voltage.

Combining AC methods and mechanical vibrations (pumps, piezo, sonic, ...) you avoid the formation of the inverse voltage and the electrolysis results in an improved gas production.

But to use the hydrogen as a thermal catalyst you don't need much.

If you want to run on only water, that is another business... Stan Mayer died with his secrets.

[Frank Lee]

I know Stan's secret

[chuckm]

well most expensive is incorrect. Electrolysis is by far the cheapest. Very little materials are required and electricity is dirt cheap.

Actually, it is much more expensive than the currently most popular means of industrial hydrogen production: cracking natural gas.