Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Nerys

Energy return on energy invested is irrelevant.

I can sum up why in one word

Entropy

if you don't know what that means then this explains why you even TYPED the words energy used and energy invested in the same sentence.

Just in case some do not know

100% of all energy usages are LOSSY. you can NEVER EVER get a return on energy expended. the BEST you can hope for is to approach but never actually reach 100% although 100% is mathmatically possible maybe. Not likely in reality though.

this includes HHO this includes Battery Electrics This includes GASOLINE OIL DIESEL PROPANE and any other fuel you can think of. THEY ALL take more energy in than you will EVER see out. Period. End of discussion until the laws of the universe as we know them get revised.

The only real question is DOLLARS IN and DOLLARS OUT.

Lets use a hypotetical comparison of a Gasoline car at 20mpg and a battery electric car such as the RAV4EV both of these are real so its something we can crunch some numbers on.

to go 100 miles in the Gasoline car at current prices costs me $12.10

to go 100 miles in the Battery Electric at current prices would cost me $2

How much energy either uses is irrelevant to me.

The one is $10.10 cheaper than the other (it also happens to use less energy but thats not relevant to me)

NOW lets say I put an HHO system in my car. LETS ASSUME for the sake of this discussion that it does work and lets say I gain 5mpg from it

so instead of my 20mpg I get 25mpg.

the only REAL question here is this. this means I used 4 gallons of gasoline.

IE it saved me $2.42 in gasoline.

DOES THE ELECTRICITY I USED TO CHARGE THE BATTERIES TO RUN THE HHO cost more or less than $2.42

THATS IT. that is the only thing I wish to discover.

if it costs me LESS than $2.42 in electricity to gain that 5mpg per 100 miles then IT WORKS and its BETTER in my view. (also depends on maintenance and how much WORK it is to keep it running this also needs to be factored in)

I don't care about energy in or energy out. I don't care which is more efficient or which pollutes more. I care about one thing.

WHICH WILL COST ME FEWER DOLLARS. Its really that simple.

there are other benifits. even if its BREAK EVEN. I might still do it (especially if its more than 5mpg even at break even) since that means it costs me nothing MORE than what I am paying now but I buy less OIL and this is a good thing to me.

I am going to have to build one of these damned things one day and see if it actually works. ON PAPER it works. the math is sound. if you inject more hydrocarbons IE FUEL into the engine you will go further. WHY some of you even debate this is beyond me its simple science folks.

the only question is NOT if it works but is it PRACTICAL. ie is it cheaper than gasoline.

NO you can not make a car run on hydrogen ALONE. by the time you got a battery pack big enough to allow you to generate enough hydrogen to run the car 100% on hydrogen YOU ALREADY have a battery pack large enough to go 2-3-4 or more times further as a pure ELECTRIC CAR (hydrogen generation is NOT an efficient process) and since no battery tech currently exists to allow 500+ mile ranges for an EV practically then NO your not going to be able to make enough power to run a car on PURE hydrogen and NO gasoline.

but to add a LITTLE bit to increase your range or decrease your gasoline usage even by a little bit? in theory this is doable and these things are CHEAP enough to build that its worth a go (plus I have other uses for a hydrogen generator so if it does not work its no loss for me)

Quit making speeches and show us the math.

[dcb]

nerys, It was not at all obvious (buried in the verbiage somewhere perhaps) that you wanted to purchase batteries to recharge at home to make hydrogen while you drive.

Simple experiment for you

1. Charge up a battery

2. use battery to make known quantity of hydrogen (inverted beaker in tray of water or something)

3. plug in killawatt on battery charger and recharge battery, compute cost to recharge

4. compute energy stored in the quantity of hydrogen to equivalent (btu) energy worth of gasoline.

5. determine cost of that equivalent amount of gasoline that has same amount of energy as the hydrogen generated.

The cost of the electricity to the cost of the gasoline should give you the cost conversion factor.

Factor in cost of equipment and lifespan of batteries, as well as how much hydrogen you can reasonably produce per charge (plus fuel metering changes)

[Nerys]

Thats just it dcb. I don't know how to do that math I am missing some values. IE how much of an effect will the hydrogen have on my fuel economy if any (CAR ECU's will fight you on this I am hoping my older simpler single O2 sensor car will have less trouble with it)

I can produce more hydrogen with $5 of electricity than I would need to drive my car for 100 miles. So I know its possible.

the problem is BRINGING this energy with me in real time. Currently we can only carry about $2 in energy with us in a very expensive battery pack that I can not afford.

The problem is making the car USE the hydrogen assuming I can effectively produce it.

Someone gave me some "rough" numbers once and on doing the math to gain 20% fuel economy I would need to bring about 4-5 deep cycle batteries for my 54mile commute (charge once at work)

I already have the chargers and I already have the batteries. the problem is building an effective generator. I don't yet have the needed TIME to sit down and build a few and test them out and fine tune a design. I keep hoping someone else will do this work and provide a PDF with a list of stuff to buy at home depot and instructions for how to put it together for best H2 production per watt hour of power used etc..

there is very little REAL info on "specifics" available. one day I am just going to have to sit down and build one. I have some of the parts. I will be using a 5 gallon pail (orange from home depot LOVE orange)

I got the SS outlet plates and some nylon washers and hardware to assembly it. I have enough room for 5 cells in the bucket. I figure I will build one cell first and if it produces a nice quantity of gas I can add one more cell and one more battery. so eventually I would have 5 cells and 5 batteries.

if it really works well I would eventually switch over to NIMH pack them cell lifespan would become irrelevant. (with leads figure 2 years so thats $200 in batteries for 80,000 miles of driving or .0025cents per mile or or 400 miles per PENNY meaning I can simply ignore the cost of the batteries in the math.

The chargers I already have and I have never had one die (unless left outside but then thats my fault not the chargers) so I can ignore that cost.

Cost to build the hydrogen cell? about $25 in parts.

so no I don't really have to factor in the cost of the equipment. its so cheap that by the time I amortize it over even a few months driving its well below a penny a mile.

the only real unknown is HOW MANY mpg increase will I get if any and will the offset in fuel pay for the electricity to charge the batteries.

I wanted to just get a tank full of hydrogen and "see" what happens.

This could tell me if it would work AT ALL You see making a car run on hydrogen is EASY just don't give it any gas it will either run or it won't The problem is when you try to run it on BOTH hydrogen and Gasoline. will the computer properly use LESS gas to compensate for the presence of hydrogen? in fact thats the core problem INTERFACE with the electronics in the car.. that has its own complications though. actually its very easy but I would have to buy my own tank and regulator and those are well beyond my financial means just now. the actual hydrogen is about $18 to fill the tank. its the tank and regulator costs that kill it for me :-(

[dcb]

well, the first q is would an electric motor to help push the car be less than a tank/regulator? And more efficient?

See with limited capacity, efficiency does become critical. If you could help push your car along with a motor (and possibly regen on braking) then you could be getting close to 100% of a energy return out of those batteries.

If you use the battery energy to make hydrogen to feed the engine, you will not be getting the most out of them mileage wise (and I wouldn't count on any gasoline enhancement magic either). In essence you will be losing battery power (making entropy) in the conversion to hydrogen, then feeding that hydrogen into a thing that will use maybe %30 of the hydrogens energy to help move the car (the rest goes to heat).

[Nerys]

No wrong question. First the EV motor would cost more and Second I am not buying a tank and regulator. It would be a ONE TIME use just to "see" if building a hydrogen system is WORTH IT or not ie a TEST one time. After that I would either abandon the H2 injection system or go forward with it. The cost of the tank and regulator is the REASON WHY I have not tried it yet :-) ie I can't afford it. and $500 for a tank and regulator is about 1/6th what a electric motor and controller would cost!

If I could afford an EV setup you can bet your *$# thats what I would do since Battery Electric is at least 4 times as efficient as Hydrogen.

The point of the Hydrogen system even though its far far less efficient than an electric motor is that I CAN AFFORD a hydrogen system. I can NOT afford an EV system. There is also no construction or modification of the car involved. I just feed the H2 tube into the air intake. In theory if the car plays nice it will simply use LESS GAS to keep the car running. at speed I would have to depress the pedal a little "less"

an EV solution is no where near as easy for a home mechanic and costs a lot more. I would need at least 6-8 batteries to get usage power (over 72volts) Plus an electric motor PLUS a way of putting that electric motors power to the ground (the hard part) plus a way of triggering and smoothly powering the ev motor alongside the gasoline motor. This adds a lot of cost and complexity (even though IT IS my desired long range goal to go PURE EV) its at least $3000 just for the motor and controller! I simply can not afford that. I could barely afford the metro and it was only $1000 ($600 plus the parts I have put into it so far)

[dcb]

I was thinking of an "electric assist" really, not anything that can move the vehicle on its own, just displace some gasoline use, like you are trying to do with hydrogen.

You already have batteries and can probably find a suitable motor for < $100. Still a lot of details to sort out, but you want to make the most out of the batteries you have since you can't afford ones that only hold $2 worth of charge but still want more range.

I'm envisioning the frame and wheel off one of those little scooters with your motor (or maybe the built in motor) strapped on with appropriate gearing for your situation, leaning on the bumper.

Anyway, it is all pretty half baked right here so have fun

[Nerys]

You know you really got me thinking. There is a company that did a 5th wheel electric the wheel would come down and be driven by the electric motor. If I removed the spare tire I could cut a hole in the spare tire carrier bay and gain direct access free and clear to the roadway. I would put a 5th where right there and put the motor inside where the spare tire sits now. That guy making the metro hybrid found an electric motor for $450 (more than I have but doable with a few months savings)

My objective would be to have enough Electric power to get to say 30-35mph engine off. this way as I come to a stop I can put it in neutral and turn off the gasoline engine for the entire coast slow down. wait at the light AND acceleration back to 35mph or so before restarting the gas engine and turning off the electric engine.

ie this would remove 90% of the "bad" mpg portions of the drive. I already hardly ever use reverse. I park on inclines or pass through so I can use my gravity drive to back up and THEN start the engine to take off. with just slightly awareness of planning where I park I am pretty successful at this.

I gained 1.4mpg this past tank doing this casually so I am going to try and do it more hard core and see what I gain.

I still want to try the H2 system at some point simply because I am curious how much of an impact it would have. you see the electric assist should work for the Metro its light and small. it won't work for my jeep or my 5000 pound van. even a 2mpg increase in my van would be HUGE when your talking going from 17mpg to 19mpg etc..

This has certainly got me thinking thats for sure.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by Nerys

You know you really got me thinking. There is a company that did a 5th wheel electric the wheel would come down and be driven by the electric motor. If I removed the spare tire I could cut a hole in the spare tire carrier bay and gain direct access free and clear to the roadway. I would put a 5th where right there and put the motor inside where the spare tire sits now. That guy making the metro hybrid found an electric motor for $450 (more than I have but doable with a few months savings)

My objective would be to have enough Electric power to get to say 30-35mph engine off. this way as I come to a stop I can put it in neutral and turn off the gasoline engine for the entire coast slow down. wait at the light AND acceleration back to 35mph or so before restarting the gas engine and turning off the electric engine.

ie this would remove 90% of the "bad" mpg portions of the drive. I already hardly ever use reverse. I park on inclines or pass through so I can use my gravity drive to back up and THEN start the engine to take off. with just slightly awareness of planning where I park I am pretty successful at this.

I gained 1.4mpg this past tank doing this casually so I am going to try and do it more hard core and see what I gain.

I still want to try the H2 system at some point simply because I am curious how much of an impact it would have. you see the electric assist should work for the Metro its light and small. it won't work for my jeep or my 5000 pound van. even a 2mpg increase in my van would be HUGE when your talking going from 17mpg to 19mpg etc..

This has certainly got me thinking thats for sure.

Which van weighs 5,000 lbs? Your '96 Voyager should weigh in closer to 3,500...

Didn't you have a thread on HHO going on over at Chrysler Minivan Fan Club?

[Nerys]

nono My 92 Ford Clubwagon. sadly the Voyager is down hosed the tranny. man i love that voyager. when it was possible to buy real gasoline I got 28mpg solid in that.

I just got my van weighs when I picked up some ashpalt. 5800 pounds when I subtract me and my gear about 5400 pounds.

yeah the voyager is about 3500 pounds IIRC. yes I started or participated in a thread on HHO over there. Never got around to build one of the buggers.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Nerys

My objective would be to have enough Electric power to get to say 30-35mph engine off. this way as I come to a stop I can put it in neutral and turn off the gasoline engine for the entire coast slow down. wait at the light AND acceleration back to 35mph or so before restarting the gas engine and turning off the electric engine.

Actually accelerating should be gas only, that is where you can run at bsfc peak (and you don't want to have to buy a motor/batteries that can accelerate your car up to 35mph)

It is when you are cruising that this would have the biggest impact I think, you get up to speed, throw the switch/lever/both/whatever and you get to lift up on the throttle a tiny bit for a while.