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Old 06-24-2008, 11:12 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by idtent View Post
Maybe I'm just too hot headed but I was just wondering if anyone read my post or was the info irrelevant
Yes I read it, I got so involved about watching the vids on u tube and doing research.....Anyway,As I said earier My friends built one. They also said that if you reverse your wires (+ and - to - and +) that will burn off the oxidation. Then switch them back....

Once my head stops spinning... I will look into your info. Thanks!!

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Old 06-24-2008, 11:30 PM   #62 (permalink)
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silverknight thanks,
I took a plate off my cell to clean it first I tried to sand it off but that didnt work so well. So I soaked the one in muriatic acid and it started to disintegrate so im wondering if it really was Stainless steel. I want to get off of work to get a local metal shop and get them to cut me some metal the same size as the electrical covers and throw them on. I don't think the smack's booster is the most efficient. One of my buddies is making one that sandwiches the plates in between two side wall but I don't know if it is more efficient or not because he hasn't tested it yet.
I am hopefully going to see some of Meyers' works so if I understand it i'll try to tell you.
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:34 PM   #63 (permalink)
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RacerX,
Sounds like a good idea i'll have to try it tomorrow
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:02 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I bought a scanguage and have been trying to get some good baseline number unmodified.
Silvernight,
I love the scangauge but it is only reading data from sensors that are designed for a very narrow field of view. Example - when I pull my map sensor I get 0 GHP - but that does not mean my fuel flow has stopped on my running engine. It just means I really don't have a fuel flow sensor - it is all calculated from more primitive means.

All this to say - if you are changing fuel chemistry - your scangauge will probably miss lead you - untill you run the calculations on the tank by hand. (This is often when the experimenters stop posting as well.)

I do wish you the best of luck on the HHO. I'm with ihatejoefitz on the thermodynamics though. I use to be in the hydrogen economy camp - until I took a thermodynamics class and realized the whole planet (trees included) run on a Carbon cycle - hydrocarbons are amazingly powerful and we have taken them for granted- they will not be easily displaced. But I also want some well reasoned data and less hyperbole on this HHO debate. Perhaps some of me still hopes the hydrogen economy concept will work.

interested in the outcome, please keep us posted.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:15 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ttoyoda View Post
Second, could you please watch those youtube videos and give us your University of Kansas engineering opinion?
Well, I've finished the videos. No mention of HHO generators (in the form of alternator powered electrolysis). However, it was pretty interesting stuff, I learned a few things.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:21 AM   #66 (permalink)
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By HHO mod I assume some type of in car hydrogen generator using work created by some combustion cycle. Percent gain as far as fuel economy? It would be a loss. My car is designed to use gasoline. Hydrogen is a fuel and as such it should be included in fuel economy. How do you think an engine that is designed to run on gasoline will do on any other fuel, economy wise?[/QUOTE]


Define "any other fuel"...??? Methanol, Ethanol, Propane, Natural gas, Browns gas, Hydrogen? This discussion forum, "Right now" is talking about Browns Gas and so I think we are all trying to figure out how economical it would be, to make/use it in a gasoline "designed" engine.
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:14 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Hey, Kansas were does your experience come from, That you can say HHO genny's don't work?
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:29 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I think he is just saying that using such a system to improve the efficiency of an ICE is possible, though it would require a very heavy redesign of the engine to actually work properly. However, most people take this theoretical concept and attempt to practice it by just throwing a kit on some random car and hoping the equation will balance itself.

This, I think, is in line with what Tony, a very respected individual, has to say about it:

Quote:
More subtly, other systems claim that the hydrogen is used as a combustion enhancer. The idea is that adding quite small amounts of hydrogen to the fuel/air mixture cause improvements to the burn, which in turn leads to better economy and reduced emissions.

In principle this is a sound idea. Several reputable studies have been done into the idea, and there is no doubt that adding hydrogen to a petrol / air mix gives the following benefits:

* Better ignitability (leaner mixtures can be ignited)
* Higher flame speed (leaner mixture will burn reliably)
* Reduced tendency to knock (so higher compression ratio can be used)

If an engine is designed and optimised to take advantage of these altered properties, then substantial improvements in power and economy can be obtained - ArvinMeritor claim up to 20-30% (full article here).

So, this is a great technology and we should all rush out and bolt hydrogen generators onto our cars? Well, no. The problem is that the rest of the engine needs to be optimised as well to get the benefits. To take advantage of the higher octane rating, the compression ratio must be raised by redesigning the cylinder head or pistons. More critically, the ability to burn a leaner mixture is only useful if the engine ECU is configured to inject a very lean air/fuel ratio, and manage the required variations in spark timing and fuelling (which current production vehicles, without exception, are not). Simply speeding up the burn, even if theoretically advantageous, is likely to make economy worse if the ignition timing is not adjusted to suit.

As a result of these considerations, I am highly sceptical about the use of hydrogen generators as an aftermarket fuel "saving" device, and will remain so until the makers produce some good results.


Many devices that produce hydrogen via on-board electrolysis feed not pure hydrogen, but a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, to the engine. This mixture (two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen) is commonly known as Brown's Gas. Various semi-magical properties are claimed for this gas, but these are widely disputed and should be considered with scepticism.
http://fuelsaving.info/hydrogen.htm
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:52 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
This discussion forum, "Right now" is talking about Browns Gas and so I think we are all trying to figure out how economical it would be, to make/use it in a gasoline "designed" engine.
Yes... well it seems like only some of us are having that discussion, others seem to be diverging onto hydrogen, including Mythbusters with their poor excuse for an experiment, proving only that an overunity "water powered car" is not possible... wow, go figure.

Quote:
Many devices that produce hydrogen via on-board electrolysis feed not pure hydrogen, but a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, to the engine. This mixture (two parts hydrogen to one part oxygen) is commonly known as Brown's Gas. Various semi-magical properties are claimed for this gas, but these are widely disputed and should be considered with scepticism.
I think this is what "we" are keen to investigate more, HHO/Brown's gas/oxyhydrogen seems to be lumped onto the end of hydrogen discussions.
The evidence against running pure hydrogen (including production, tuning, etc) is then used to discredit the oxyhydrogen claims, with no citation of real scientific testing of oxyhydrogen specifically.
Just because HHO has H in it doesn't make it the same thing.

Oh and for the record I don't believe the claimed HHO benefits... and I plan to do my best to disprove it .

The claims of hacked 'thrown together' HHO setups seem to be coming from older carb'd cars. I have an '87 Ford Meteor (or Laser in US) with carb, I know every piece of the car inside and out, so if these claims are true, I should eventually also get an improvement.
If that happened, I'd be happy to give the car to someone else (in Sydney of course) for a week of independant testing.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:13 AM   #70 (permalink)
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don't know which "Kansas" you want to answer... me or ihatejoefitz but I'm willing to comment:

it is not that HHO systems "don't work"
it is that HHO probably doesn't work as well as it is claimed

generating a fuel from one of the most stable compounds on the planet (water) using an cheap alternator driven by a mobile otto cycle gas burner is a thermodynamic loser.

The chemistry in the cylinder will have to be almost miraculous to make up for all of the energy conversions in the system.

but we will see and Silvernight will create the data
I trust this site to vet the data - the HHO sites, not so much
and if it works I'm building one!

There are other tricks the HHO guys use to tweak their engines, and they may be as much use as the HHO. I'm just as interested in them.

by the way: ihatejoefitz and my concurrence has less to do with Kansas and more to do with engineering. Although for being a Kansan, he did pick the wrong school :P

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