Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[Nerys]

those are straight figures dipwad. YOU do the math. YOU run the numbers. "Gas" here is 3.42 a gallon normally. I just found a NEW GUY running a special $2.62 a gallon introductory rate. you bet your but we will order from him while he keeps it that price and thats per ACTUAL GALLON not per "equivalent" gallon. (the only equivalent gallon to me is MILES DRIVEN per unit of gas) since its a gas I guess you need to go by weight?

My minivan gets 28mpg. at $2 per gallon divide 28 by 2 and I get 14 miles per DOLLAR.

the 17.7 miles per dollar is STRAIGHT FROM THE QUOTED ARTICLE

So what part of that is BS exactly?

the article only tells me money spent on the fill and miles driven for that. again that is straight from the article. what part of that is BS exactly?

Average extra cost to add HYBRID to a car I think was $4000 or $5000 more for the prius over its NON hybrid counterpart Unless I am mistaken on that part what part of that exactly is BS ?

being more expensive than hybrid ARTICLE QUOTES $7000 for the cost difference between the Gas and non gas cars in the article.

What part of that exactly is BS?

so please enlighten me. what part of that is the "biggest load of bs so far in this thread"

I can't wait to here this, smart ass.

and you rmay I HATE YOU. you got a citicar :-) been trying to nab one of them foryears always beyond my financial ability :-) hehe

[chuckm]

So anyway... the origin of my bringing up natural gas was in reference to hydrogen production. The vast majority of industrially produced H2 is made by cracking natural gas, that method being much cheaper than electrolysis.
My second response pointed out that natural gas is cheaper than gasoline on a $/btu basis ("gge" being a way to compare the btu fuel value).
Nerys, I attempted to politely correct some factual errors on your part. If you would rather I did not distract you like that, let me know.

[dwtaylorpdx]

Too bad the fed forced the farce of BIofuels on us and withdrew the tax incentives to the automakers for building and maintaining Natural Gas vehicle production... Biofuel research is important but so is maintaining proven efficient systems like CNG.

Dave (Poking the hornets nest just a bit this morning.)

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Nerys

those are straight figures dipwad. YOU do the math. YOU run the numbers. "Gas" here is 3.42 a gallon normally. I just found a NEW GUY running a special $2.62 a gallon introductory rate. you bet your but we will order from him while he keeps it that price and thats per ACTUAL GALLON not per "equivalent" gallon. (the only equivalent gallon to me is MILES DRIVEN per unit of gas) since its a gas I guess you need to go by weight?

My minivan gets 28mpg. at $2 per gallon divide 28 by 2 and I get 14 miles per DOLLAR.

the 17.7 miles per dollar is STRAIGHT FROM THE QUOTED ARTICLE

So what part of that is BS exactly?

the article only tells me money spent on the fill and miles driven for that. again that is straight from the article. what part of that is BS exactly?

Average extra cost to add HYBRID to a car I think was $4000 or $5000 more for the prius over its NON hybrid counterpart Unless I am mistaken on that part what part of that exactly is BS ?

being more expensive than hybrid ARTICLE QUOTES $7000 for the cost difference between the Gas and non gas cars in the article.

What part of that exactly is BS?

so please enlighten me. what part of that is the "biggest load of bs so far in this thread"

I can't wait to here this, smart ass.

and you rmay I HATE YOU. you got a citicar :-) been trying to nab one of them foryears always beyond my financial ability :-) hehe

Stop posting your BS. Nobody believes you. Your figures are obviously made up. You used the spot price of nat gas from last year to argue that your average cost for gasoline over the last year was actually lower. Yeah right.

And whats with the name calling? What are you 12 years old? Grow up.

[Nerys]

what are YOU. Your the one who came and said it was all BS not me. Talk about name calling you know what BS stands for right?

What figures are made up? want to see my god damned gas bills? I don't give a flying rats arse what you think is made up ONLY I HAVE TO PAY CASH OUT OF MY POCKET for this stuff. The gas price of $2.62 a gallon for gas is not a spot price from last year its what I paid 2 weeks ago to put gas into my heater tanks.

FACT based on the data FROM the actual article the CNG car would only get me another 3 miles per $

FACT. Non arguable NON refutable you have no ground to stand on FACT.

Minivan 14miles per $ CNG car at the time of article 17.7 miles per $1

I still have 120gallons of $1.30 gas you want to start chopping numbers?

EVEN NOW gas is $2.34 and FALLING making my minivan cost NOT much different at 12miles per dollar.

want me to go take a god damned picture of the gas station sign now? think that number is BS too?

when gas was $1.30 LESS THAN A YEAR ago put my van cost at 21.5 miles per $1

Gas prices have fluctuated wildly over just the last few month how is estimating a yearly average BS. YOU explain yourself.

I don't really care what you believe. you are so insignificant on my care if you believe what I say radar you don't even register. REALITY has this pesky way of imposing itself on you whether you believe in it or not.

OH and my minivan cost me $2500 TOTAL, less than half THE CONVERSION COST of converting a car to CNG.

I was being VERY generous and using my minivan as a good average car to compare it too.

less use some OTHER cars. my METRO can get me 47mpg with 1300 pounds inside it. thats at RIGHT NOW prices 20 miles per $1

Take any average new smallish car available today from the kia soul to the cube to the sentra to the civic that average 35+mpg and its 15 miles per $

at RIGHT NOW gas prices. not last years $1.30 gas prices.

still want to mince numbers?

whats your "gas" cost in your home? give me a REAL "quantity" of gas per mile figure?

NOW maybe when gas is pumped in pipes to your house its cheaper but when you have to pay someone to come out and fill your tanks THAT is what it costs me.

so again JUST like Hybrids it will never save me a single penny in gasoline.

[Nerys]

chuckm

I have no reason to doubt your info. I imagine its more than accurate but

"that method being much cheaper than electrolysis. "

on an INDUSTRIAL scale I have no doubt your right.

but on a end user HOME scale natural gas does not even come close to being as cheap as the electricity from my wall outlet. Its already more expensive (again going out and buying it) than gasoline is so it can not possibly save me any money. (it might be cheaper when its pumped to your home I Have no idea we don't have that infrastructure here)

"My second response pointed out that natural gas is cheaper than gasoline on a $/btu basis ("gge" being a way to compare the btu fuel value)."

this might be true but like ethanol does not pan out in reality.

$ per BTU is not what I have to pay for. $ per MILE is what I have to pay for.

according to the article at least the $ per Mile of gas even ignoring the conversion costs is only SLIGHTLY higher than your regular run of the mill car and HIGHER than you just above average mpg car. once you go above 35mpg gasoline is cheaper than Nat Gas and this is assuming the price from that article is the same today and not higher.

BTW I still have NO IDEA what Nat Gas costs. The article does not say. it just says they went 115.7 miles on $6.49 in nat gas. I have no idea "HOW MUCH" nat gas $6.49 IS nor what it costs today.

I just checked the latest price I could find is august 2009 from EIA at $15.15 for residential per thousand cubic feet which really does not help me much.

NOW I did notice that the INDUSTRIAL price is $4.13 per 1000 cubic feet which might explain why it was posted that it was cheaper to get hydrogen from CNG. alas we can't buy at that price as individuals. we pay $15.15 per unit probably a lot higher today since it was trending solidly UP since march of 2009 at $11.88 per unit and every single month till august where it stops it was higher each month.

[chuckm]

Actually, the natural gas-powered Civic GX gets 24 city/36 hwy/28 combined mge. To put it differently, if it burned 126.7 cuft of natural gas, you'd travel 24 city/36 hwy/28 combined miles. At $15.15/1000cuft, or $1.92 per gallon equivalent, you'd get 12.5miles/$ city, 18.8miles/$ hwy. For the sake of comparison, the Civic sedan gets nearly the exact same mpg ratings on gas (25/36/29), but since gas typically costs about $0.50 more per gge, the cost per mile is higher on gas. Here is a link showing CNG filling stations and prices on a map. Most of the recently updated prices show ~$1.10 per gge.

Yes, you are correct in saying that it would be difficult for the home user to produce hydrogen the way it is done industrially. But reforming natural gas is a process that is about 80% efficient. A typical low pressure, low temperature electrolyser will be about 25% efficient at max, with the typical DIY unit probably turning in at about 10% (having non-optimal cathodes and anodes, no active electrolyte control, non-optimal voltage, etc). For proof, feel the side of an electrolysis unit - the thing gets frickin' hot! In the end, I cannot imagine that you are going to gain anything by having an onboard H2 generator unless you figure up a way to do it by reforming natural gas. An electrolyzer is just going to be too inefficient to show any net gains.

I'm still offering to design a bottle-based H2 system to anybody who is willing to build it.

[Nerys]

so to go 36 miles in the CNG car it would cost $1.92 IF you had gas pumped to your house (CNG at the gas station WILL cost more I think I can say with 99% certainty) and IF you had the special equipment needed to use your house gas to fill your car.

while the gasoline car also getting 36mpg would cost me $2.34

so the CNG car would only save me 42cents a gallon but REQUIRE me to buy a NEW car at a $7000 premium AND have home pumped CNG gas AND have the very expensive home equipment to fill the car.

for 42cents a gallon savings? no thanks.

Like I said it would never save me a single penny in gas savings since the ROI on the extra cost (and prices continue to rise mind you yet gasoline prices are currently falling though I will admit we all know that won't last) back on track the ROI at a rough guess is many times longer than the expected lifespan of the car.

Thank you chuckm for providing the numbers on how much gas it consumes!

now if you DO have home pumped gas and already have needed home equipment (or a local filling station) and assuming you can get that price for residential fuel it MIGHT be worth it.

its NEVER worth it over keeping your current car (finance charges cost of car cost of full coverage insurance make the gas savings seem tiny) but lets assume YOU WILL be buying a brand new car either way and you will be buying a civic so your out of pocket is $7000 extra. (I have no idea what the home equipment costs I imagine a lot so lets assume you have a local filling station and they charge residential pricing (a lot to assume but lets go with it))

$7000 turns into $10,500 after finance charges and thats being very generous ie decent credit low interest rate 5 year loan. Interest WILL be in excess of 50% but again lets assume you get lucky so use 50% interest.

I drive 40,000 miles a year. almost 4 times the national average.

at 36mpg I would use or 1100 units of fuel.

CNG $2112
Gas $2574

We will assume the prices will stay static NOTE gas is going down while CNG is going up AND this assumes you can get a local filling station to charge you residential pricing and ignores the gas tax that would be added to this and the higher profit of a gas station.

Savings $462 per year under BEST possible condition.

ROI is just shy of 23 YEARS and thats at 40,000 miles per year.

ahh No. that just won't work :-) this means the AVERAGE person would require 82.5 YEARS just to break even before they would save ONE PENNY over just buying the gasoline civic.

and again this assumes CNG prices remain static and you can get residential priced CNG from a local filling station.

as soon as you have to pay more and add home filling equipment your into more than a CENTURY to break even.

heck lets assume you are filthy rich and you pay CASH for the car. NO finance charges at all. so just $7000 premium. (at which point you also won't be caring about the price of gas but again lets roll with it)

15 YEARS to break even. AT 40,000 miles a year.
54 YEARS for the average american before break even.

so NO CNG just won't cut it. Average person keeps there cars today for 9 years (the longest in a long time)

In order to save a penny in gasoline you would have to save $777 per year in fuel savings. the only way to do that is if gasoline costs

hmm average person would currently spend CNG cost for average person (11,000 miles per year) is $586 that means GAS would have to be $1363 per year or $4.47 a gallon.

thats to BREAK EVEN on fuel costs in NINE YEARS. ie you save NOTHING you just break even.

I would say to make CNG desirable to people either the cost of CNG would have to be cut IN HALF and that would be BARELY enough to get people a little interested OR gas would have to be $8 a gallon WITHOUT CNG going up in price.

BTW this is a good segway into why I want a battery electric (but can not afford one right now since I would have to pay 100% up front and not finance it)

there is a Electric metro on craigslist right now that JUST MIGHT work for me. claims 45-80 miles range but I am not sure if I can get my needed 60miles with 4 people in the car but lets pretend I could

$12,000

I spend as we did already $2547 in gasoline (actually I was spending some $4000 a year in gas the METRO I have is going to change that dramatically)

The batteries would need to be replaced every 3 years since they are lead acid batteries. They are sometimes good to 4-5 years but I would be below my minimum required range before then so lets use 3 years.

$2000 to replace the pack. I would have to do that once before ROI about 1 year into the second battery pack before ROI so lets call that another $700 for battery

$12,700 + electricity to charge the car lets assume using straight grid power NO solar offset etc.. which I would do but lets go with it. $300 a year.

5 years to pay for the car. another what? 8 months to pay for the electricity used in that 5 years $1500 so the ROI is a little less than 6 years.

compare that to my NON metro car and the ROI is 3.5 years.

hence why I want a battery electric car so badly but we can't have the affordable NIMH packs we need so that won't work :-(

[user removed]

Fact.
Your Metro is overloaded to the tune of 550 pounds.

Fact.
It's illegal

Fact.
You are willfully operating a vehicle in an unsafe manner, and endangering your life, but even more importantly the lives of others, by compromising the design limits of the vehicle.

Fact.
You seem to like to be abrasive while interacting with others, instead of simply stating your point and letting the reader draw his own conclusions. When you read something you do not understand you insert the "what is relevant to me" caveat and reject constructive imput.

Fact.
You have made some bad choices in life, and chosen to take risks, for no real benefit. Risks that affect any future employers decision to hire you for a better job.

Fact.
Your responses are in violation of forum rules.

Fact.
Back to the original thread objective, HHO will not increase your mileage, but you are certainly free to find out what we already know, even though you choose to reject any empirical evidence that would help you with your decision. The best output HHO generator will only produce less than 1/350 of the fuel energy content necessary to operate your vehicle. It's your money, waste it however you please.

Fact.
You claim to be in a financial position that severely limits your choices, but you still make choices that have no basis in informed logic. One of those choices is to consume fast food, when you are capable of making your own meals.

Why?

Maybe a lunch bag and a different vehicle, with fuel paid for by your fellow commuters would be a wiser choice. At least it would be LEGAL and much more SAFETY oriented.

I'm done with this thread.

regards
Mech

[chuckm]

Yo, homey, I've never suggested that you buy a natural gas car or convert one. Let's go back and follow the thread. First, I said, "Actually, it is much more expensive than the currently most popular means of industrial hydrogen production: cracking natural gas." Your responded, "only if you ignore the cost of the natural gas which is HIGHER THAN GASOLINE." I then proved that you were incorrect regarding the relative costs of gasoline and natural gas. I'm simply trying to point you toward the only economic source of H2 for a car: bring a bottle onboard. That's been my point all along.

If you are absolutely deterimined to stuff an onboard electrolysis unit into your vehicle, by all means go ahead. The gains will forever be outweighed by the cost required (ROI is negative). I strongly suspect the battery weight will actually eat whatever mileage gain you would have otherwise gotten. Hence my offer of a bottle system design. You could install something that weighs, at most, 1/5th of your battery-based system. You'll have no recurring costs of replacing battery packs.