OBII Smarter than us?

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by minispeed

And if the american public was willing to pay the premium on the car to re coup the cost of the development then maybe the auto makers would want to, but the public constantly shows that things like quiet, style, size and high reving power matter more to them and that's where they spend their money.

The only reason the europeans spend that kind of cost building and refining diesel is because the deep tax cuts have given the public the incentive to buy diesel. If there had not been that incentive then the diesel would have never been developed to the point where people in the EU now choose to buy diesel even on sporty luxury sedans.

Europeans were driving diesel well before there was any refinement or tax credit. I call BS, since there weren't any "incentives" prior to 1989 that I am aware of. And diesels were common then as well.

Also the "premium" on diesel is an artificial creation.

1. Auto makers keep shortening production cycles and model year changes to make the public buy more often, this is NOT benificial to society, longer runs would reduce cost of production, improve reliability, reduce repair costs and the list goes on.

2. Auto makers developed the attitude of the american public to suite their bottom line over many years of advertising, surprizingly Japanese regularly drive in a hypermiling way (slowly) without massive backlash, culturally their government and authority figures promote saving, a foreign concept here except during WWII.

3. Diesels in american face unique laws, most environmental laws (not all) are written ver-betum from a large special interest, auto companies here play a very large role in laws pertaining to their own product, always have always will. They need to isolate our market and have done so relatively well, no rickshaws or kei cars here.

4. The car buying public EXCLUDES most people on this forum, because the only sale that counts is a NEW car sale. The people who buy new cars tend to not share the same ideals as folks who never buy new cars. This means a large interest is being ignored because of the price divide between folks who buy true used cars and those that only buy new. Those who buy used have had much of their "choice" removed by the car buying public.

5. Due to above auto makers "have" to sell fancier more powerfull diesels that also are more expensive, my lowly 6.2 diesel had a cost of production within 5% of a 454 gas engine. Poor mans diesels are rarely made anymore but that isn't to say they "couldn't" be made either or that they would not be marketable either. Perspectives can change over time.

Our problems are created by our own ignorance and the ease of manipulation, if we were taught differently as folks in japan and other areas of the world are; we would gradually gain a different attitude and the so called impossible would become commonplace.

Sadly its not in the best financial interest of a few to have that happen. A dramatic shift would alienate many special interests from their profit system.

[racprops]

What he said!!!!!

Originally Posted by rmay635703

europeans were driving diesel well before there was any refinement or tax credit. I call bs, since there weren't any "incentives" prior to 1989 that i am aware of. And diesels were common then as well.

Also the "premium" on diesel is an artificial creation.

1. Auto makers keep shortening production cycles and model year changes to make the public buy more often, this is not benificial to society, longer runs would reduce cost of production, improve reliability, reduce repair costs and the list goes on.

which killed the chrysler turbine car and the electric car.

2. Auto makers developed the attitude of the american public to suite their bottom line over many years of advertising, surprizingly japanese regularly drive in a hypermiling way (slowly) without massive backlash, culturally their government and authority figures promote saving, a foreign concept here except during wwii.

3. Diesels in american face unique laws, most environmental laws (not all) are written ver-betum from a large special interest, auto companies here play a very large role in laws pertaining to their own product, always have always will. They need to isolate our market and have done so relatively well, no rickshaws or kei cars here.

or air cars ..cars driven by only compressed air Compressed air car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

4. The car buying public excludes most people on this forum, because the only sale that counts is a new car sale. The people who buy new cars tend to not share the same ideals as folks who never buy new cars. This means a large interest is being ignored because of the price divide between folks who buy true used cars and those that only buy new. Those who buy used have had much of their "choice" removed by the car buying public.

you once could buy a stripped down car with only a heater, straight 6, three on the tree and rubber mats.

5. Due to above auto makers "have" to sell fancier more powerfull diesels that also are more expensive, my lowly 6.2 diesel had a cost of production within 5% of a 454 gas engine. Poor mans diesels are rarely made anymore but that isn't to say they "couldn't" be made either or that they would not be marketable either. Perspectives can change over time.

Our problems are created by our own ignorance and the ease of manipulation, if we were taught differently as folks in japan and other areas of the world are; we would gradually gain a different attitude and the so called impossible would become commonplace.

Sadly its not in the best financial interest of a few to have that happen. A dramatic shift would alienate many special interests from their profit system.

[minispeed]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

4. The car buying public EXCLUDES most people on this forum, because the only sale that counts is a NEW car sale. The people who buy new cars tend to not share the same ideals as folks who never buy new cars. This means a large interest is being ignored because of the price divide between folks who buy true used cars and those that only buy new. Those who buy used have had much of their "choice" removed by the car buying public.

.

So you want someone to step up and sell new cars, with new car engineering costs, to your specification, to new car buyers who don't want that product and then they can drive it and depreciate the value to the point that you are willing to pay them less for what you want and they never wanted in the first place?

If you are identifying yourself as being excluded from the car buying public then don't complain that the car makers don't listen to what you want. You haven't had your "choice" removed because your "choice" has been to choose to take the left overs for cheap prices instead of being listened to.

And they have listend to us, go buy a leaf or a tesla. They are way more efficient than any gas burning car. If you still need gas you have the volt or ford energi. They provide the product we want that will blow any of our cars, my insight included, out of the water for efficency, you just have to be willing to pay the cost it took them to develp the car.

[minispeed]

Originally Posted by racprops

1. Auto makers keep shortening production cycles and model year changes to make the public buy more often, this is not benificial to society, longer runs would reduce cost of production, improve reliability, reduce repair costs and the list goes on.

which killed the chrysler turbine car and the electric car.

Short production runs are not just for extra profit, or to screw anyone over. Repair/replacement part costs and future profit projections are factored into new car design and pricing. If you kept the run of a popular car like the civic or camry to 12 years with all the same parts then the aftermarket would jump on all replacement car parts quick. That would NOT benefit the consumer in any way because the auto maker would simply not factor in that future income in the decision to price out the new car. Therefor you would pay more upfront for the car because the new car sales part of the business would have to supply much more of the total company profit. And this would never work because with so much competition unless all automakers redesigned the models in the same year no one would buy a civic or camry that was designed 12 years ago at new car prices.

The ford focus is a pretty good example of this, the first gen was loved by the auto press, it sold in big numbers. The second gen was a redesign for the rest of the world but north amercia got a re bodied first gen. Sales were crap, the auto press hated it, bad reviews all over the place. Then the third gen comes out and again it's loved and you see them all over.

Sales numbers
Year US Sales
1999 55,896 - partial sales year
2000 286,166 - wow people love a new car!
2001 264,414
2002 243,199
2003 229,353
2004 208,339
2005 184,825 - the design is getting tired now
2006 177,006 - new civic came out this year
2007 173,213
2008 195,823 - first gen platform, new body, looking fresh fools a few people
2009 160,433 - well they didn't stay fooled
2010 172,421
2011 175,717
2012 245,922 - third gen, wow fresh lets buy a new focus!
Ford Focus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2,722,700 people were willing to shell out new car cash for a focus but if it had cost $3000 more to factor in Ford not making as much money on replacement parts I wonder if they would have sold as many.

Also the turbine car wasn't killed because they wanted to sell you more parts, it was killed because when it was banned from racing at indy after 2 failures on a grand stage there was no incentive to be rewarded from having the best engine if you couldn't race it. Win on Sunday sell on Monday is true. If the industry is so worried about loosing money on parts and repairs then why did the points and distributers that require tune ups disappear? Why do spark plugs last 100,000miles? Why is the timing belt being phased out in favour of chains now?

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by racprops

Problem is ONLY the gas VAPOR that is made during the compression and power stock is able to make power.

I'm running on vapour.
CNG remains gaseous throughout the process.

Car is rather light by comparison, engine is small.
It still doesn't get that kind of MPG (150) though

This is about as good as it gets with this car - which is considerably better than what I get :
Volkswagen Group


As for the answers : the instant you mention HHO ... red flags go up globally and most of the regulars scream NOT ANOTHER HHO thread ...

And then it goes from bad to worse.
Kind of the way it's going, actually ...

[racprops]

Also the turbine car wasn't killed because they wanted to sell you more parts,

WRONG It was dead years before Andy tried racing with it…

it was killed because when it was banned from racing at indy after 2 failures on a grand stage there was no incentive to be rewarded from having the best engine if you couldn't race it.

It was banned because it out ran all the other cars…I watch that happen.

Win on Sunday sell on Monday is true. If the industry is so worried about loosing money on parts and repairs then why did the points and distributers that require tune ups disappear? Why do spark plugs last 100,000miles? Why is the timing belt being phased out in favour of chains now?

Because the EPA demanded that the smog equipment LAST for the expected life of the car's 100,000 miles. To do that they had to make changes.

Rich

[racprops]

I'm running on vapour.
CNG remains gaseous throughout the process.

Car is rather light by comparison, engine is small.
It still doesn't get that kind of MPG (150) though


Come on everyone know Natural Gas has less power that Gasoline, I believe it is something like 60% of the bang of gasoline…
Same for propane..

And both have a slower burn rate..if I remember things correctly.

Gasoline Vapors are the real way to go.

AND we will not have to build new CNG or Propane stations or even water or Hydrogen stations, just fill your tank with the same old stuff, you just use a lot less of it…


Rich

[racprops]

"As for the answers : the instant you mention HHO ... red flags go up globally and most of the regulars scream NOT ANOTHER HHO thread ..."

As much as I seem to have killed HHO with my testing...I still kind of wonder if I missed something.

Rich

[minispeed]

Originally Posted by racprops

Also the turbine car wasn't killed because they wanted to sell you more parts,

WRONG It was dead years before Andy tried racing with it…

it was killed because when it was banned from racing at indy after 2 failures on a grand stage there was no incentive to be rewarded from having the best engine if you couldn't race it.

It was banned because it out ran all the other cars…I watch that happen.

Win on Sunday sell on Monday is true. If the industry is so worried about loosing money on parts and repairs then why did the points and distributers that require tune ups disappear? Why do spark plugs last 100,000miles? Why is the timing belt being phased out in favour of chains now?

Because the EPA demanded that the smog equipment LAST for the expected life of the car's 100,000 miles. To do that they had to make changes.

Rich

Yes I wasn't saying it wasn't banned becuse it out run them all, I'm saying after it was banned the pottential reward to recoupe money on turbines was low since you couldn't prove it with racing and if you tried to sell a car with a turbine people would remember that it broke down twice at indy. Those who do not follow indy rules may assume that they don't race it because it was unreliable and thus not want to put money down and buy one them selves.

And your last point proves how environmental laws and regulations can be good to give you something you want, better parts that last long. However you bit** and complain that the same environmental rules and regulations don't let you have pollotion causing diesel.....

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Europeans were driving diesel well before there was any refinement or tax credit. I call BS, since there weren't any "incentives" prior to 1989 that I am aware of. And diesels were common then as well.

Not that common.
Definitely not in passenger cars.
Diesel was for trucks - the real kind, not pick-ups.
At least in Belgium, diesel was less taxed than petrol as it was for "work" trucks. It's still taxed less than petrol.

The Golf GTD changed everything for diesel cars.
VW had put out a diesel that actually drove OK, rather than it being a lethargic, moving roadblock.

3. Diesels in american face unique laws, most environmental laws (not all) are written ver-betum from a large special interest, auto companies

One day you might thank your politicians for it.
They may well have made the best decision, even if it was for all the wrong reasons.

The effects of diesel particulate matter on people's health is being investigated more thoroughly these days, and the outcome isn't exactly good.
It's downright bad, and alarming.
Those so-called clean diesels, are actually the very worst of the flock.
Their small particulate matter goes straight into the deepest crevasses of your lungs, then into your blood, and narrows your veins raising blood pressure.
Even in young, healthy people.

These aren't even long-term effects, it's happening almost instantly.
To the point that the time spent in traffic when going to the test location had an effect on the test values ...


You're still seeing 50+ mpg
On the other end of the Atlantic, we're seeing severe health issues ...