Old to fuel-saving New to here

[maxc]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

To help the reader understand, I will simply say, the gasoline engine is designed to operate at or near lambda in most cases - lambda being the air/fuel mixture where all the oxygen in the air is consumed. Power output is directly proportional to the air mass flow. The higher VE at lower RPM is why the throttle is implemented to balance power output with power needs. It is easy to visualize the cylinder of an engine becoming filled 100% with air at zero RPM (at rest). At 120 RPM, it leaves you only 1/4 second to fill the cylinder, but the filling can still be high ( on the order of 95% of filled mass and above ). At 1200 RPM, you only have 1/40th of a second to fill the same cylinder. You can see that the short time period to fill results in a lower total air mass being passed into the cylinder. With all else being equal, as RPM increases, the time to fill is proportionally decreased resulting in decreasing air mass moved into the cylinder and as such, lower VE.

However, the use of a throttle plate changes all of the above by varying the restriction and the effective VE.

The problem George is having is realizing the mass of air at part throttle is very different than at full open throttle no matter what the RPM.

If all the 02 was consumed before it reached both the upstream and the downstream 02's would not work. After a very large part of the fuel is burnt in the converter then there is no o2 left.
Welcome aboard George. p.s you need a good OBD2 scanner too read grams of air entering engine.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by maxc

If all the 02 was consumed before it reached both the upstream and the downstream 02's would not work. After a very large part of the fuel is burnt in the converter then there is no o2 left.
Welcome aboard George. p.s you need a good OBD2 scanner too read grams of air entering engine.

All they do is produce a varying voltage dependent on oxygen content in the exhaust stream. A narrow band sensor has steep curves while a broad band is more gradual allowing a wide range of measurement of the O2 content of the exhaust ( thus the term wide-band O2 sensor ). They can still be functioning even when the fuel is perfectly burned. They are not "fooled" by "enhanced combustion".

[sarguy01]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

All they do is produce a varying voltage dependent on oxygen content in the exhaust stream. A narrow band sensor has steep curves while a broad band is more gradual allowing a wide range of measurement of the O2 content of the exhaust ( thus the term wide-band O2 sensor ). They can still be functioning even when the fuel is perfectly burned. They are not "fooled" by "enhanced combustion".

I can see enhancing combustion by changing the design of the cylinder head, piston top, spark plug position, etc, but I think auto manufacturers have that pretty much taken care of. Enhancing combustion by adding gas vapors doesn't make any sense to me.

[maxc]

Ambient oxygen are pumped through the porous platinum eletrode through the zirconia cell and to the exterior platinum eletrode creating a voltage. The oxygen ions can only flow if the exhaust contains hydrogen(h20), carbon monoxide(CO), hydrocarbons(HC) in other words the combustibles not O2.
This is from a book of an Automotive Seminars that I and 30 other techs attended for driveability. That said the down stream O2 with start to flat line if the cat is working. Less combustibles lower voltage.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by sarguy01

I can see enhancing combustion by changing the design of the cylinder head, piston top, spark plug position, etc, but I think auto manufacturers have that pretty much taken care of. Enhancing combustion by adding gas vapors doesn't make any sense to me.

In other threads, I had links to honest research that took advantage of vapor phase fuel systems. Unfortunately, with George, the discussion is buried under a large amount of self delusional aggrandizement.

[sarguy01]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

In other threads, I had links to honest research that took advantage of vapor phase fuel systems. Unfortunately, with George, the discussion is buried under a large amount of self delusional aggrandizement.

Care to share any links? I'd like to read about it.

[Econoguru]

Originally Posted by sarguy01

You used hamsters to test O2 levels in the cars????

I believe Honda used beagles to test out their optional smokers packs in the 2004 Civic Executive (it had heated seats so they were quite comfortable).

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by sarguy01

Care to share any links? I'd like to read about it.

Clackamas engineers' invention improves fuel economy | OregonLive.com

It's been around a while, but the discussion is far more productive and informative than what George has been providing.

Here is the Smokey Engine from Hot Rod:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e..._vapor_engine/

I am starting a thread to continue this discussion outside of this thread.

[sarguy01]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Clackamas engineers' invention improves fuel economy | OregonLive.com

It's been around a while, but the discussion is far more productive and informative than what George has been providing.

Here is the Smokey Engine from Hot Rod:

What Ever Happened To Smokey's Hot-Vapor Engine? - Hot Rod Magazine

I am starting a thread to continue this discussion outside of this thread.

The difference between these systems and George's system is the temperature. George has a cold vapor system while these examples use hot vapors. I am assuming the heating gas causes it to vaporize much faster than if it is cold? From these articles, it also seems that those hot systems are more complex too.

It is very hard to believe George's system works because he has no way of regulating the amount of vapor going into the engine, if any vapor is actually going in the engine at all. Then, we get back into the EFIE discussion. Is it the EFIE leaning out the engine and causing the claimed MPG increase? Wasn't that the same argument with the HHO systems?? If George had provided more credible research, aside from links to his own website, this concept would be easier to believe.

[iveyjh]

Everybody knows if this vapor injection worked the big automakers would be using it.