Parallel Hybrids

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by IamIan

To each their own ... But I disagree.

For me at least ... I think the time spent debating ,... or even initially learning / teaching about what is or is not a serial hybrid and why , or a parallel , or a mild, or a full ... etc... that same time spent learning how it actually works pros and cons ... will have gotten 'us' further ahead ... than debating about which one of 4 words to label it as.

And if we already learned how it actually works ... pros and cons ... than we would be further ahead than any of those labels could ever hope for ... and thus they could be skipped entirely... and we would be further ahead without them.

I think 'we' are all better off , when 'we' instead spend the time to learn a bit about how the systems actually work , including it's pros and cons ... and not trying to shoe horn all of mechanics , engineering, and science down into 1 of 4 words.

I don't see the one word label adding understanding to people ... I see it only serving as a barrier to actual understanding... and encouraging inaccurate or incorrect hierarchy assumptions... and more than once I've run into people who end up getting confused about how those 4 words are used in other fields , which don't always use them the way some people use them when talking about hybrids... which in itself is a negative effect of the effort to shoe horn it all down into one of those 4 words.

At least that is how I've seen it ... maybe other have seen it differently.

I would not say I disagree here with your perspective or Neils. Hybrids and there designs are complicated. There are 1000 ways to skin a cat and well there are many different ways to hybridize a vehicle. The end result is still the same the cat is skinned and the car is a hybrid! Whether we call it a micro, mild, or full hybrid its still using hybrid technology to try and create a more efficient transportation option over ICE only vehicles. Classifying hybrids into these 3 categories is merely a way to explain there level of hybridization. Now is the average Joe that does not even know how to perform a basic oil change gonna be able to differentiate between the 3 no its very unlikely! A person that is educated on hybrid design will however, and be able to easily understand how its configured.

The day has come where hybrids will begin to play a much larger role in personal transportation as we will begin to see more and more of them on our local roads. Some people by default will be come much more educated on there designs and of course there will still be the ones who could care less and are happy with there ICE only car. I think in the next 75 years or less hybrids will be very mainstream and we will be hard pressed at least here in the US to purchase an ICE only car in fact it may very well be against the law to drive an ICE only car due to tougher emissions standards as well as proposed fuel economy standards! The future is going to get very interesting to say the least.

GH..

[freebeard]

Well, if we're talking about opinions, I suggest pure electric is the end game; it's advantage is the variety of possible sources. Hybrids are a stepping stone.

What will tip the balance from ICE (see Edison2"s reasoning) to electric will be something like this:

Mini BoostPack 12V Capacitor Car Battery Update

Sort of a pure electric hybrid?

[GreenHornet]

Good Video Freebeard,

While I have also planned my battery solution for Tigon around Supercaps such as viewed in the video it is far from where it needs to be to render the ICE obsolete or coming hybrid drives. Currently Supercaps in conjunction with batteries will increase battery life and help reduce weight in a hybrid or ICE as you have seen in the video. Still the problem is energy capacity and until electric storage devices can catch up to fossil fuels which may never happen they will not be the end game.

Do I think it will happen? I do but not in my life time unfortunately
Do I hope it happens? absolutely

But until then using supercaps in conjunction with batteries has huge potential in hybrid drives and is why I will be utilizing it in my Tigon diesel electric hybrid car and is why in the next 10 years we will start to see them slowly replace Lead acid batteries in our transportation vehicles.

Good stuff my friend talk to you later,

GH

[BarelyAWake]

Originally Posted by niky

Add pedal power to the rear.

Which reminds me... What happened to the tribrid trike?

If you mean mine, the T3 aka Zombrid;



http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ole-18414.html

It's the sunny summertime so I've been out n'about riding the bejabbers out of it is all, I hope you'll forgive my absence from the forum lol

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by P-hack

I cannot think of one "advantage" that series has over parallel, except being able to simply recharge the batteries at a stop (which means you are "idling", so stop that), and reduced mechanical complexity...

The engine absolutely should have a means to power the wheels directly (and efficiently), no exceptions, it makes sense in the city and the hiway. "Mostly parallel" is the way to go if you are relying on fuel.

As per similar discussion in that other thread, I disagree. There is a reason trains are series only, and there are city busses that run series only also. Being able to reduce the weight and complexity of a transmission, while also downsizing the engine and running at peak BSFC for a vehicle that frequently accelerates, stops,and idles seems to make sense.

I wish garbage trucks were series only, so they wouldn't make so much noise accelerating the powerful engine just to screech to a halt again and idle. Perhaps a parallel would still do this more efficiently?

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

I think in the next 75 years or less hybrids will be very mainstream and we will be hard pressed at least here in the US to purchase an ICE only car in fact it may very well be against the law to drive an ICE only car due to tougher emissions standards as well as proposed fuel economy standards! The future is going to get very interesting to say the least.

I don't see hybrids as being mainstream in 75 years. Instead I see them as a bridging technology on the way to full electric, and expect they will mostly be replaced by that time frame. It just doesn't make sense to have all the complexity, weight, and cost of 2 different propulsion systems.

My ideal currently is to own an EV for commuting and errands, with an efficient ICE for longer trips, or when a second car is needed at the same time.

[P-hack]

There are some "industrial" uses of series too, I noticed the steam rollers while driving through a construction area had hydraulic hoses to the "wheels".

IIRC hydraulic is more efficient than electric at regen than electrical. An add-on hydraulic brake energy recapturing system could do wonders.

Everything is huge on a train, plus stop and go, ya friction pads would be put to the test. An electrical coupling is probably less maintenance, I don't know if they did a comparison w/a gearbox efficiency in making the decision though, but the electric driveline is good for many many miles and lots of load

They also do rolling resistance (and streamlining) right on trains So we have to be careful w/efficiency comparisons there also, including economies of scale, which favors lower BSFC.

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

As per similar discussion in that other thread, I disagree. There is a reason trains are series only, and there are city busses that run series only also. Being able to reduce the weight and complexity of a transmission, while also downsizing the engine and running at peak BSFC for a vehicle that frequently accelerates, stops,and idles seems to make sense.

I wish garbage trucks were series only, so they wouldn't make so much noise accelerating the powerful engine just to screech to a halt again and idle. Perhaps a parallel would still do this more efficiently?



I don't see hybrids as being mainstream in 75 years. Instead I see them as a bridging technology on the way to full electric, and expect they will mostly be replaced by that time frame. It just doesn't make sense to have all the complexity, weight, and cost of 2 different propulsion systems.

My ideal currently is to own an EV for commuting and errands, with an efficient ICE for longer trips, or when a second car is needed at the same time.

redpoint5 many people make this argument and if its gonna happen its gonna come down to 1 thing and that's energy storage. Energy storage has always been the problem with EV only vehicles. If capacitor and battery tech continues to evolve you very well may be right. However I do not see it happening anytime soon! I wish it would but there is to much politics and red tape to get through for it to do away completely with the ICE.

The good old boys wont let it happen! That is why you will most likely see hybrids dominate the near and mid future. The good old boys can still make there money

I agree it ads complexity but consider that we have ICE technology that dramatically reduces engine weight to around 35 pounds for a 75hp or better engine that is incredibly fuel efficient and non polluting.So if you think the ICE is gonna go away it is not any time soon because the amount of energy in Gas or diesel or even biodiesel for that matter is so much more than our current electric options.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see us take a big wack out of our current country and worlds fossil fuel usage sooner than later unfortunately its just not gonna be easy cuz the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer! Who has the money determines which game we will play and right now its very clear hybrids are more than simply a bridge to pure electrics.

GH

[BarelyAWake]

Some of the interesting aspects of a parallel hybrid vs series are redundancy and operator control, the ability, even the requirement of what motive system should be used as the primary for that particular environment - the user's decision based on the specific criteria of the machine, the usage and their preference.

This can of course be supplemented with software, alleviating the driver's work load... but this presents a difficulty with the entire series/parallel debate and that's the sheer diversity of applications as well as variations of "hybrid", not just series/parallel but the size/type of motors, fuel types, capacity & discharge rate of the electrics and of course, intended use - sporty runabout vs long range commuter vs in-town grocery getter vs work hauler, etc., etc., etc.

As I read this thread I become more convinced that it's less about the tool then what job you're asking of it - and that's a nearly impossible question answerable only by an interested and educated consumer/builder.

My hybrid experiment isn't nearly as refined or well engineered as these commercial offerings, nor is it even a remotely practical choice for the "average" transportation needs. I built it within a fairly narrow field of perimeters, constraints both legal and personal as well as fiscal...

...I built a small, comparatively lightweight parallel hybrid for comfortable long distance trips in mixed terrain and variable driving environments that was as close to full compliance to the legal requirements of a motorized bicycle/moped as possible, as those requirements are far more restrictive than non-commercial automotive they imposed some challenges inapplicable to the debate in general.

Yet for my usage I find the parallel hybrid to be superior in all ways save one, operator complacency - I have to make almost constant decisions, choosing how much and where, why and when. Is it a short hop over to the store? Block to block slow traffic? Is there an outside source of "free" power (solar, hydro, communal charging station, etc.) Electric only then, I'm not even going to fire up the beast. Then there's the other end of the extreme - Is it a distance trip, exceeding the maximum electric range? Steep hills? Cargo? Aggressive fast traffic? Interestingly, in all of those situations I use both motive systems - ICE for the raw power & range with the electric supplementing it to reduce consumption/provide additional preformance.

There's almost no conditions in which I'd use ICE alone, but there is one that comes to mind and that's a systems failure, of one of my drives is inoperable for whatever reason - depleted/malfunctioning battery bank or electric motor or conversely, an ICE failure, mechanical or just OOG.

Don't laugh, it's happened lol

Thing is I wouldn't expect the "average" consumer to know about, understand or given those - want to deal with all the added complexity of choice. For most the tool is just that, a tool and no more & the want is to just turn the key and go. Remembering & finding a place to plug in a pure electric is a complaint I've heard with some frequency and that's pretty much all a pure electric ever asks of you. In the rare instance I let someone try my hybrid it's in electric only mode, I start to explain the dual throttles and gear ranging and their eyes glaze over and they start to back away slowly with a stammered "nevermind" - for these folks a series hybrid is a nearly perfect choice, usage couldn't be simpler & with their AAA card handy & warranty at the ready redundancy is irrelevant.

Is one better than the other? For you or me yes - for everyone in general? No, I think one can only pick out specific instances in which an aspect is superior much like the car vs truck debate which is again, specific usage, the wants & needs.


I do believe hybrids are a stopgap measure yet until electrics can sort out their reserve capacity & recharge rate hybrids (preferably alternative/multifuel) are one I hope to see with a greater level of acceptance - but their one massive drawback regardless of type is complexity, series or parallel you've dual motive systems at least with potential mechanical, electrical and electronic (software) failures compounded with every system, the level of driver & mechanic education required beginning to exceed reasonable expectations with the addition of every system.



Jus' some thoughts *shrug* I gotta admit as I read through this thread I can't help but wish I'd found this forum before I built my hybrid... I'm not sure I'd have done anything differently, but I'd have better understood what I was going to do before I went and did it anyway lol

Interestingly, waaaaay back in the "daydream" stage I really wanted to build an AWD diesel electric series hybrid, I ended up with a single drive four stroke gasoline/alcohol parallel hybrid due to both technology & fiscal limitations... but I'm pretty sure I'd have been just as happy either way, if for completely different reasons

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

redpoint5 many people make this argument and if its gonna happen its gonna come down to 1 thing and that's energy storage. Energy storage has always been the problem with EV only vehicles. If capacitor and battery tech continues to evolve you very well may be right. However I do not see it happening anytime soon!

Agreed. There is a limit to energy density with any chemistry, whether it is potential electrical energy in a battery, or heat energy in oil.

It does not follow that pouring more money into researching battery chemistry will necessarily yield substantial improvements. Heck, ICE engines have had enormous amounts of money and time to improve, and the best vehicles get is still an abysmal 35% efficiency.

That said, there will be improvements in both chemistry, and infrastructure. Perhaps battery technology will never reasonably give us more than 100 miles range, but if the vehicle could safely be charged in 5min, and the infrastructure supported frequent stops, it might be practical and economical.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see us take a big wack out of our current country and worlds fossil fuel usage sooner than later unfortunately its just not gonna be easy cuz the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer!

The bolded myth is often cited, but not factual. Generally speaking, over time, the poor have become wealthier too.

the poor have become wealthier too.

I do agree though, that the rich and powerful do steer politics and industry.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

If I would ever own a hybrid vehicle, I'd rather get a hydraulic than an electric setup.