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Old 04-14-2019, 03:38 PM   #3421 (permalink)
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curious why you'd build an ev plane, with the limitations to range and charging. the only use I see is a motorglider in good gliding country.
Hi, Yes all of that is true. My idea, and it is ambitious, is to use a small, light diesel to generate the electricity to drive one of the EMRAX motors. With batteries to assist the way they would in an EV Auto, as boost, emergency drive etc. I wouldn't need reverse or brake regen but otherwise I would think I could use a pair of Paul's controllers. I'm still learning but I think it is doable. So Far it looks like a GM 1.6L Turbo Diesel, some combo of EMRAXs for both AC generation and final prop drive, some type of AC-DC converter, a DC battery charger, a pair of tandem resolvers also from EMRAX and a couple of Paul's AC controllers. There is a similar Series-Hybrid Electric drive for planes in development by Siemens and Pipistrell. The total $$ of this drive system could be put together for less that any of the Aircraft engines that I was looking at and would sip Diesel or Jet-A in comparison.


I'm looking at two possible kit planes, both are in development and would be good platforms for this. One looks like it will be doing flight testing this summer, the other in a couple years. I'll try to supply more details after I do some more research and have more posts so I'll be allowed to create links.


Both Aircraft can have very high performance with this setup and therefore range.

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Old 04-14-2019, 04:55 PM   #3422 (permalink)
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ok, thanks for the explanation.
Do the math for weight of the components, and compare with an engine driven propeller using a reduction gear to get the optimum tip speeds, and see what the added weight will cost. Then factor in generator losses.
I think your idea lends itself to low speed high lift aircraft, where the weight penalty gets absorbed better.
High speed regime, weight is king. Inline losses alone make it impractical.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:03 PM   #3423 (permalink)
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Indeed yes the weight of all of this Aircraft hybrid drive has to be equal to or less than the original engine/fuel weight. I think this can be achieved given the much lower need for fuel. No need for a reduction drive with the right EMRAX motor. The real weight would be in the batteries, GM 1.6 Turbo Diesel, Generator/Drive Motors. Also true that a plane that can land slow and take off quick has an advantage, better yet if it also has a good/great top speed.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:07 PM   #3424 (permalink)
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Yes one of the things I am trying to wrap my head around is the inline losses. Starting with a 1.6L Turbo Diesel that can deliver ~100kw power is key, pick then an EMRAX motor to use as a generator - 40% performance as it isn't optimized to be used this way without a controller. Match that with a tandem pair of Emraxs to drive the propeller. Then I'm not sure how much is lost when going from AC-DC to the controller, then also back from DC-AC. All has to be factored to keep losses at a minimum.

Last edited by Quattro64; 04-14-2019 at 06:33 PM..
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:18 AM   #3425 (permalink)
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If you keep everything at the same voltage levels, only a couple of percent for each conversion ac/dc, dc/ac. When you switch to higher voltage at one end, the losses get bigger depending on methodology.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:23 PM   #3426 (permalink)
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Thanks, Is it Volts or Current that I would combine, in parallel?, to increase power when I want to add battery boost? I imagine I'd need to do this prior to the controller(s) via high voltage relays or something. Is this the way I would go about adding boost to a Series Hybrid EV?


I only need to size the ICE HP to the correct sized AC Generator that would then provide converted DC to the Controller/Battery charger to both charge the batteries, preferably on the ground, and drive the AC propeller motor with decent cruising speed/power. The Battery bank would only need to be sized large enough to provide boost power when summed with the motor power or to keep the plane in the air if the motor should fail. I think this is all doable just need to crunch numbers before I start writing up any white paper.
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Old 04-16-2019, 09:10 AM   #3427 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro64 View Post
Thanks, Is it Volts or Current that I would combine, in parallel?, to increase power when I want to add battery boost? I imagine I'd need to do this prior to the controller(s) via high voltage relays or something. Is this the way I would go about adding boost to a Series Hybrid EV?


I only need to size the ICE HP to the correct sized AC Generator that would then provide converted DC to the Controller/Battery charger to both charge the batteries, preferably on the ground, and drive the AC propeller motor with decent cruising speed/power. The Battery bank would only need to be sized large enough to provide boost power when summed with the motor power or to keep the plane in the air if the motor should fail. I think this is all doable just need to crunch numbers before I start writing up any white paper.
Hi

Do you have any connections to aircraft design world? I mean are you AML licenced or aircraft design engineer?
Have you made a performance comparison of Emrax package with particular battery versus Emrax + smaller battery and motor generator package?
Aircraft wing loading, takoff and landing performances, mode of operation etc...

I may have some insight for you.
- Calculate airplane rated power as the 75% rating. This is the power airplane will fly most of the time at. Also this it the power motor has to be able to sustain indefinitely, not just the measly 1hr rating industry offers as continuous rating. For climb and takeoff performance you calculate 90% *1.2 and you get the max power you need. 100% is emergency power for climbout at MTOW and high altitude etc...

- Emrax motor is very power dense. However it is 20pole motor. Control has to be performed at high PWM like 18kHz and this is difficult to achieve at high amps. Emsiso is good controler up to 120Vdc i am not sure they can provide 400A rating for extender period. 800A is peak power in cold state.


- Diesel genset can be quite heavy. How about a lighter 4cylinder engine like Rotax 912? If you use cooling system i recommend using one for the whole system. This is difficult with power electronics limits at 80C.

- In airplane EV world Amps mean weight. More amps, more ohm heating, heavier cables, heavier cooling system You want to lighten current demands as much as possible. I would suggest to go to 360Vdc system. It is the best tradeoff performancewise.

- You can use diode bridge directly with Emrax. I have tried this. It gives voltage linear with rpm. LV motor/gen would give 360Vdc on bridge with something like 4000rpm. This is slightly out of phase, that s why you have to use a battery or supercap in the network if you want to supply the propulsor Emrax directly then.

What you can think about is:
https://emrax.com/wp-content/uploads...MRAX-MOTOR.pdf
1. Front drive LV Emrax 120kW (75% derated) with 200kW (100% rating also derated)
Consider if you want to use 2:1 gearing to lower prop speed from 4000rpm to more acceptable 2000rpm.

2. Volt inverter is rated up to some 400Vdc with 600Amp IGBTs. What is better it has dual 3phase bridges which are connected to the same DC link! What i suggest is using that, genset provides steady supply for continuous use and battery provides power to supply peak demand at takeoff and heavy climbout.

3. Battery has to be designed to be small enough but able to supply peak current demand. Supercap system is unobtanium for this kind of application.
Your best bet now are hybrid batteries. I saw Volvo V60 and XC90 hybrid batteries are particulary light. Also Lexus models with 3x engines may use powerfull inverters and may even use 600Vdc system.

A
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:24 AM   #3428 (permalink)
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Thanks, These are all excellent food for thought. I was inspired about this type of Drive from the work by Siemens, seems they sized one of the Smart Car 3 cylinder Turbo Diesels(by FlyEco) to power their Hybrid Magnus eFusion to a generator, a light one they developed, to burn only 7 liters per hour. I am guessing the 1L Smart Car TD is running at idle to do this. They built in redundancy by using tandem resolvers and multiple controllers. This is a smaller LS Aircraft that is not using their largest E-motors. They also Developed a more powerful aircraft with Pipistrell in Slovenia.


So I thought why not try something similar with a slightly larger plane? A Velocity or similar canard style plane, the new Raptor looks great, a four or five seater.


The GM 1.6 Ecotec engine developed in 2013 is a modern engine, durable, ancillary systems like turbo etc. also durable, I can get one out of a wrecked Cruze for pretty cheap. I don't know what type of kWs it puts out at idle but its torque curve peaks at ~ 2k and the HP curve peaks at ~ 2.9k. This engine even though it puts out 135kWs at peak power is the match for the Smart Car TD in terms of MPG, the Cruze is a heavier car than the Smart Car. This 1.6 TD weights ~ 250lbs. If the fuel savings is similar to what was seen in the Siemens, litres vs gallons per hour, then I would use a far smaller fuel tank than the one I was originally considering, with much less weight.


I believe two of the EMRAX 348 Mid Voltage motors, run at about half their capability, would be enough to taxi and cruise at engine idle once aloft, for any added performance needs(take off) there would be DC battery boost. If the motor stops running then the batteries could provide an hour or so of powered controlled decent. One Run as Generator, the other as AC Motor to drive Prop. They Each weigh ~ 90lbs. If needed, in an emergency, I could also switch the EMRAX generator to run the AC prop EMRAX directly, but according to EMRAX the generator performance might lose as much as 40% without any type of invertor or controller. This would only be needed for a problem with anything in the AC-DC to DC-AC power chain.


For an Inverter I will look at the Volt's, there is also a link earlier in this thread that someone posted about using a Prius inverter, they sell on eBay fairly cheap. So I will look at those options. I imagine Paul's Controller can also be used as an Inverter? I will certainly look at His for the multiple controllers I would want for this.


For the batteries I would strongly consider the newer NMCs. The ones that just came out with the improved anode. They seem to be safe and have a better power to weight ratio than the Lifepo4s. The Chinese are just now starting to manufacture these newer NMCs.

This is all interesting brain storming and it is probably a couple of years before I go any further with this project. I think it is doable, though I'm sure some of my assumptions will fall short, or maybe not? I'll figure this out though before I put any monies aside.


thanks,

Q

Last edited by Quattro64; 04-17-2019 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:36 AM   #3429 (permalink)
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Quote:
to burn only 7 liters per hour. I am guessing the 1L Smart Car TD is running at idle to do this
you are way off. 7 liter ~ 2 gph = 30 mpg @ 60 mph
that would be wide open on a 1 liter!
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Old 04-17-2019, 02:29 PM   #3430 (permalink)
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Thanks, These are all excellent food for thought. I was inspired about this type of Drive from the work by Siemens, seems they sized one of the Smart Car 3 cylinder Turbo Diesels(by FlyEco) to power their Hybrid Magnus eFusion to a generator, a light one they developed, to burn only 7 liters per hour. I am guessing the 1L Smart Car TD is running at idle to do this. They built in redundancy by using tandem resolvers and multiple controllers. This is a smaller LS Aircraft that is not using their largest E-motors. They also Developed a more powerful aircraft with Pipistrell in Slovenia.


So I thought why not try something similar with a slightly larger plane? A Velocity or similar canard style plane, the new Raptor looks great, a four or five seater.


The GM 1.6 Ecotec engine developed in 2013 is a modern engine, durable, ancillary systems like turbo etc. also durable, I can get one out of a wrecked Cruze for pretty cheap. I don't know what type of kWs it puts out at idle but its torque curve peaks at ~ 2k and the HP curve peaks at ~ 2.9k. This engine even though it puts out 135kWs at peak power is the match for the Smart Car TD in terms of MPG, the Cruze is a heavier car than the Smart Car. This 1.6 TD weights ~ 250lbs. If the fuel savings is similar to what was seen in the Siemens, litres vs gallons per hour, then I would use a far smaller fuel tank than the one I was originally considering, with much less weight.


I believe two of the EMRAX 348 Mid Voltage motors, run at about half their capability, would be enough to taxi and cruise at engine idle once aloft, for any added performance needs(take off) there would be DC battery boost. If the motor stops running then the batteries could provide an hour or so of powered controlled decent. One Run as Generator, the other as AC Motor to drive Prop. They Each weigh ~ 90lbs. If needed, in an emergency, I could also switch the EMRAX generator to run the AC prop EMRAX directly, but according to EMRAX the generator performance might lose as much as 40% without any type of invertor or controller. This would only be needed for a problem with anything in the AC-DC to DC-AC power chain.


For an Inverter I will look at the Volt's, there is also a link earlier in this thread that someone posted about using a Prius inverter, they sell on eBay fairly cheap. So I will look at those options. I imagine Paul's Controller can also be used as an Inverter? I will certainly look at His for the multiple controllers I would want for this.


For the batteries I would strongly consider the newer NMCs. The ones that just came out with the improved anode. They seem to be safe and have a better power to weight ratio than the Lifepo4s. The Chinese are just now starting to manufacture these newer NMCs.

This is all interesting brain storming and it is probably a couple of years before I go any further with this project. I think it is doable, though I'm sure some of my assumptions will fall short, or maybe not? I'll figure this out though before I put any monies aside.


thanks,

Q
I am aviation engineer with AML B1/C licence. now i work as aviation inspector. Ive seen Panthera design in Pipistrel before Siemens revoked certificate, the *******s! They were intent on using dual Siemens motors with integrated inverters. Generator would be Emrax motor on Rotax 912turbocharged or naturaly aspirated. I believe now they are intent to first certify Pantera as normal GA aircraft with Lyc540 and then try the same concept using Emrax motors combination.

I think Smart engine is running at 75% power to generate 100Hp at that consumption.

GM engine may be lightweight engine, but at 75% power output it would have to run at high RPM to sustain that power. Since it is auto engine i dont think it was designed to be run at high RPM for long.
Also i have at home 1.4l Volt engine and i ca carry it myself. However drive unit has 2 PMSM motors inside. One 115kW and one 80kW. THe case weighs like 160kg, but its a compact unit... Emrax is till way agead n power density.

Volt inverter is just to prove the design. Since it is very compact.

I would suggest using one small airplane APU to generate the power you need. They are already optimised as generators. They even output 400Hz which is nicer to components than 60Hz . Everything can be made smaller.

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