Poor man's lithium

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by vpoppv

Here's my logic: a Tesla uses 6,831 of the 18650 laptop batteries to go 200 miles (according to some dude, I haven't bothered to check, and 6,798 according to MetroMPG).

Oh, I was doing a bit of math there. I already have a few spare cells... I needed 6,798 more to DIY my own roadster pack.

Poor man's lithium... has it been done yet?

(EV Album - Battery Type: Lithium-Ion )

To do this on the cheap, I have a feeling you'd need an "in" with a company that sells/services lithium powered products ... or even a cell manufacturer. You need access to castoffs/bad modules you can harvest good cells from.

Another way to look at this would be to look at lithium is an investment. Treated properly, you can conceivably get multiple thousands of cycles from your cells, so you could have them for years and years. Even move them from vehicle to vehicle. Per mile, they're less expensive than lead acid. New lead acid, that is.

Nahh... I'd like to see someone do it on the cheap!

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Oh, I was doing a bit of math there. I already have a few spare cells... I needed 6,798 more to DIY my own roadster pack.

Poor man's lithium... has it been done yet?

(EV Album - Battery Type: Lithium-Ion )

To do this on the cheap, I have a feeling you'd need an "in" with a company that sells/services lithium powered products ... or even a cell manufacturer. You need access to castoffs/bad modules you can harvest good cells from.

Another way to look at this would be to look at lithium is an investment. Treated properly, you can conceivably get multiple thousands of cycles from your cells, so you could have them for years and years. Even move them from vehicle to vehicle. Per mile, they're less expensive than lead acid. New lead acid, that is.

Nahh... I'd like to see someone do it on the cheap!

Well... If I'm coming on to strong here for a "newbie" feel free to ban me... But MetroMPG, sorry to disagree but you are on the wrong track and leading others with you... Get the facts straight...

On that list is a bunch of confused people, not people using Li-Ion...

Zoltan Szirmay's 1991 Fiat Tipo 1.4 ... No Thundersky does NOT make Li-Ion batteries... They use LiFePo4 chemistry...

Devinci's Mini-Baja Electric ... Neither does a 123, guess what they are "famous" for? Oh right, LiFePo4 cells...

Same goes for most on that list... They reference A123 cells or Thundersky, or a bunch of other manufacturers that use LiFePo4 chem...

Show me one example of Li-Ion batteries in a DIY EV that works and I'll shut up, but until then I'm gonna yell and shout... LiFePo4 is radicaly different from both Li-Ion and LiPo people... Nobody on that list is using Li-Ion... They are just confused about what they are using...

A LiPo cell is prone to blowing up if charged the wrong way... Building a pack for a car with that would be stupid in an order of magnitude untold... They are very common in small packs made for RC planes and such and are ideal as someone said for the lights on a bike (think it was tadpoletrike?)... But definetly not for a traction pack...

Li-Ion is very, very picky about charging voltage... Charge one cell the wrong way and it goes dead... And nothing brings it back... There are most defintly EV's using them... All of them are factory products with advanced BMS systems... Not DIY builds...

As i said in my previous post... Saying "Lithium battery" is like saying "fuel"... It can be horsemanure or moonshine or whatever...

Get the fact straigth before you start confusing others... Please?! There is a lot of knowledge on this site... And a lot of you are my guides in EV building (planning so far...) But in this you need to do some research...

[Weather Spotter]

the issue is that lithium batteries degrade over time, aka a new laptop battery will only last 3 years from mfg date before it is under 50% capacity. I am not sure if other types last longer but that is what I found out about laptops last year when I rebuilt my own pack. I would be interested to see how long the Telsa's battery pack lasts before it needs replacement.

[MetroMPG]

Tweety: breathe... Again... Calm, calm.

I didn't choose the misleading words Lithium-Ion in my previous post - the forum software grabbed those words from the EV Album itself.

So obviously if the EV Album doesn't use the right terminology it's probably fair to say there's a fair amount of ignorance out there about lithium chemistries. (And I'll happily admit I'm at the bottom of the lithium learning curve myself.)

By all means, please feel free to clarify & educate! Please do! Your input is welcome - looks like you've done the homework.

(But also tune in to the light-hearted nature of the thread - or just about any thread Paul has started! Have you read his Metro conversion saga? I'd buy tickets to read an "immersion learning" experience authored by Paul about somehow using lithium to power an EV on the cheap. I have a feeling by the end of it there would be a fair amount of clarity about the idiosyncrasies of the different chemistries.)

[vpoppv]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I'd buy tickets to read an "immersion learning" experience authored by Paul about somehow using lithium to power an EV on the cheap. I have a feeling by the end of it there would be a fair amount of clarity about the idiosyncrasies of the different chemistries.)

Oh wow! Tickets are currently on sale now! Operators are standing by! Yeah, I guess I DO need to pin down a "fuel" so I don't stir up more controversy! I should have prefaced the thread with my ORIGINAL thoughts on the car which was non-rechargeable batteries, like this:
The Panasonic Oxyride Speed Challenge – The Blogs at HowStuffWorks

Then, my ecofriendly conscience took over, and I realized the only way to go is rechargeable. The DIY version that most closely resembles what I'm looking for can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wneCR...eature=channel

So, according to the pack I have, that would mean I need to research "nickel cadmium". Also, I was well aware of the fact that laptop batteries as a "fuel" were a good choice originally BECAUSE of the fact that they are so picky about charging and stuff; I've seen those videos where they catch fire, and it seems to me that it could serve a dual purpose: power the car AND provide that oh-so-unobtainable heater system that everyone always talks about. I don't think nickel cadmium goes "boom" though, so that might not be the best choice. Yeah, I need to research. I think for the time being, until I pin down a "fuel" that my rechargeable batteries will use, I'll refer to them as "go-juice containers".

[Tweety]

Heh... I'm calm... I know Paul's threads are a bit special...

Um... To clarify... If you wan't heating included in the battery pack, don't use LiFePO4 chemistry... It's the most stable one... It goes "hiiiissss" and lets out the magic smoke... Not that interesting at all...

LiPO is by far the most interesting one... I have so far managed to destroy 3 toy airplanes and one very, very small helicopter when charging LiPO's... And made one kitchen table unusable, or well, the significant other deemed it so based on the burn marks... To me it still looks like a table, but what do I know...

The Li-Ion one's don't catch fire very often... It takes a lot of hard work to make them blow up even half as spectacular as LiPO's... Like hammering nails into them, or hitting them with hammers... If you just abuse them with a charger they mainly tend to wave bye-bye and die quietly...

[Christopher Jordan]

Originally Posted by Tweety

A LiPo cell is prone to blowing up if charged the wrong way... Building a pack for a car with that would be stupid in an order of magnitude untold... They are very common in small packs made for RC planes and such and are ideal as someone said for the lights on a bike (think it was tadpoletrike?)... But definetly not for a traction pack...

Li-Ion is very, very picky about charging voltage... Charge one cell the wrong way and it goes dead...

January 2002 I paid over $1000. for 24V (two 12V) lithium batteries (Electric Sierra Cycles- Santa Cruz,CA) for a TerraTrike recumbent trike with a Currie motor. In 2003 a GEM burned up in FL.. I grit my teeth.
In November 2003 it was dead anyway.

Later in 2003 I began building my E-Pod (finished 2005). It has 3 plain old lead-acid batteries (36V).

In the last 5 years that City-EL in the UK went lithium (I think Germany sells them new with lithium) with HUGE insulation pads. Tesla had problems with batteries overheating- something like a refrigerator was needed.

I am still extremely wary! Photo is a new 2009 City-EL in Berlin.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Tweety

Well... If I'm coming on to strong here for a "newbie" feel free to ban me... But MetroMPG, sorry to disagree but you are on the wrong track and leading others with you... Get the facts straight...

On that list is a bunch of confused people, not people using Li-Ion...

Zoltan Szirmay's 1991 Fiat Tipo 1.4 ... No Thundersky does NOT make Li-Ion batteries... They use LiFePo4 chemistry...

Devinci's Mini-Baja Electric ... Neither does a 123, guess what they are "famous" for? Oh right, LiFePo4 cells...

Same goes for most on that list... They reference A123 cells or Thundersky, or a bunch of other manufacturers that use LiFePo4 chem...

Show me one example of Li-Ion batteries in a DIY EV that works and I'll shut up, but until then I'm gonna yell and shout... LiFePo4 is radicaly different from both Li-Ion and LiPo people... Nobody on that list is using Li-Ion... They are just confused about what they are using...

Li-ion batteries are just rechargeable batteries that have Lithium in the cathode. A123 and TS cells are li-ion just like all the other cathode chemistries are. LiCo, LFP, and so on, are all different types of li-ion batteries, but they're still considered li-ion batteries AFAIK.

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Li-ion batteries are just rechargeable batteries that have Lithium in the cathode. A123 and TS cells are li-ion just like all the other cathode chemistries are. LiCo, LFP, and so on, are all different types of li-ion batteries, but they're still considered li-ion batteries AFAIK.

True in a sense... But what is traditionally called Li-Ion are the LiCoO2 which is the usual one in laptops and such... It's fairly "stable" but also fairly easy to kill... Usually you separate out other parts of the lithium family by using their designations... I'd say the others are evolved from the Li-Ion's... But how to designate that is debatable...

LiPO was a follow up, much more energy content for it's weight and faster charge/discharge, but in terms of reliability I'd probably label it "unstable"... It's in the same category as fireworks as far as I'm concerned...

LiFePo4 or LFP is kind of the opposite... A bit less energy per weight (the Fe part is iron phosphate, which is heavy) But much more stable... Unless you deep cycle or rapid charge them during their break in period they are pretty hard to kill... I have had cells come back to life from abuse that would have killed of most other battery cells... I have a few cells in one of my packs for an RC heli that have survived a 50' drop... They are still performing as new (and they look far from it!)... That drop was promptly followed up by severely overcharging them, and later deep cycling them a few times, still they refuse to die... Blowing up a LiFePO4 cell is hardly an issue... At most they will make an evil hiss... No bang... And no flames... Very dissapointing to say the least...

I had a LiPO pack go supernova from a bad landing and destroy an RC plane... Another one decided to have a hissy fit when it was pinched in the exact worst possible spot and melt an RC heli... Several have selfdestructed during charging... One however decided to be an exception and just quietly refused to hold a charge... Other than that all of them have definetly been windictive when they where "mistreated"...

[vpoppv]

I gave up the "lithium" idea, as the 6 month silence implies. But last night, as I was trying to sleep, my mind wandered in this direction again. That, and Jack Rickard's videos every Friday talking about Chinese prizmatics. There HAS to be a cheap way of doing something other than lead/acid for me. Even the beat up left for dead batteries I use seem a bit overkill for the 1.7 miles I require of them. I'd be trimming a bunch of weight too if I could put something else in there. Anyway, I bought ONE battery (with no way to charge it):

New Lifepo4 A123 18650 1000-1100mah battery Cell 1Pcs - eBay (item 120581586100 end time Jul-10-10 08:40:03 PDT)

(This is pretty much just throwing money out the window because I've never seen an LiPO4 battery with such low mAh rating. Must be factory seconds- or 25ths)