Range anxiety is overrated

[LittleBlackDuck]

A garage is for parking a car. A shed is for storing junk and having a workshop.

I park my cars in a garage because I actually value them and want them to remain good looking, unlike the rusting, tatty, oxidized hulks that some people choose to drive. I believe that treating a car this way improves its reliability as well as lowering the cost of ownership. Where I live, the winter nights get down to -6C and the midday summer heat can be over 44C.

Like most things, different strokes for different folks. It does not mean that your opinion is wrong, but it is just that - your opinion. As one of my best friends stated a few years ago, opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one and most of the time they are best kept covered up and to yourself.

Simon

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by SDMCF

I have no idea what an EV costs because I first checked the range and decided they aren't for me so I never got as far as looking at the price.

If the price was $100, you'd own one. Price is always factor #1. Always.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The current crop of EVs are priced in the same ballpark as the upper end of what the major automakers offer

Pricing something at the upper end of the scale while offering less utility isn't going to encourage many sales. The only people that even qualify for the $7,500 tax rebate are wealthier, and would likely prefer a bigger or more luxurious car for their dollar.

Price is the main problem at the moment.

But storing stuff and being a workshop is what a garage is FOR. Why would anyone (outside of a high crime area) bother to put a car inside every night?

Funny, I've never had a real estate agent tell me how many units of garbage I could store in the garage. Instead, they have always quoted how many cars it was designed for.

They are designed to protect the vehicle from the elements, provide shelter to the occupants when they transition to and from the vehicle, in addition to being a deterrent to theft.

It saves many hours of scraping ice in the winter. It saves from running the AC so much in the summer. It keeps the occupants out of the rain...

The headlights on my garaged vehicles look new. My outdoor vehicles all have hazy headlights.

Anyhow, I store 2 cars, a motorcycle, 5 bicycles, a 4' x 8' trailer, ping pong table, a futon, an air compressor, and many tools plus a work bench all in my 2 car garage.

I have lots of crap in my garage, but also 3 vehicles.

Well, that may be the case for you, but it's not so for everyone, or I expect even the majority.

Price and having a place to charge are the 2 most limiting factors in EV adoption. Range is only a factor after someone has accepted that an EV is in their budget, and their living situation accommodates charging. Almost half of all people rent their living space and wouldn't be able to charge.

I'm usually generalizing because it goes without saying that there are always exceptions. If you believe my opinion doesn't apply to the majority, then offer some counter evidence for me to consider.

[SDMCF]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

If the price was $100, you'd own one. Price is always factor #1. Always.

I don't look at things that way. Price is always a factor when deciding whether to buy something I want/need, but if I don't want or need an item its price is of no interest to me. Price is never the #1 factor - the desire to own the item and the suitability of the item are always going to be more important factors to me. I suspect there are many things I can afford which I don't own, simply because I don't want them, irrespective of price.

Tell me, when you go into a store do you look at the price sticker on every item before considering if you actually want such an item? Or do you go to the items you would like and check their price?

[Fat Charlie]

Ecomodder users are not the car buying market. People who know anything about cars are not the car buying market. Idiots who wander into the showroom are. As a sleazy salesman at a place I once worked told me, "they buy the shine." In the showroom, hybrid and plug-in are premium features that are used to justify higher prices: if the Leaf is a plug-in Versa, why isn't it called the Versa Plugin? Because the Versa is a bargain $#*+box they make so they can say they have something inexpensive while the Leaf is aspirational.

Pricing is the focus and the cutoff for all new car sales. Because range is good enough for most people, it's either overlooked entirely or only brought in at the end- at which point the customer is already sold on the premium eco thing and gets a hybrid. At the dealership it's all the same: someone got steered to the premium end of the showroom and bought one of the offerings. Joe salesman doesn't give a damn about your life or needs and his idea of automotive efficiency is selling the most cars at the highest markup with the least effort.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by SDMCF

Price is always a factor when deciding whether to buy something I want/need, but if I don't want or need an item its price is of no interest to me.

As you have pointed out, that applies only to you. I'm talking generalities here, not each individual on Ecomodder. Maybe you wouldn't own an EV even if it were only $100, but the vast majority of the population certainly would.

Price is the #1 limiting factor. We have already established the desirability; it's a given.

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by Stubby79

I don't see why they couldn't cram a small(10hp?) engine somewhere on board for backup power. It wouldn't add a lot of weight, if you kept the fuel tank small. It could be an add-on, like A/C, for those who actually want it. It would have to be designed to be there from the start, otherwise good luck making the components fit.

Came here to say this.

You don't have to design the parts to fit from the start. When I first read about a homebrew hybrid, it had been done about 1980 (correction: 1979) by a guy bolting parts into an Opel GT.

Lemme tell ya - that ain't a roomy engine compartment. I know from bloody-knuckled experience. But this guy made it work in that little thing, so it can be done by a guy under a tree.

There's a couple of typos - I'm pretty sure the vehicle doesn't actually pull a mere .23A at cruising speed, that's probably supposed to be 23A - but it's compelling to see the builder say that driven carefully the car has essentially unlimited range. Mother went on to build their own, this time in a more practical Subaru 4-seater and with an 11hp diesel under the hood. At that point you're looking at a vehicle that really can take whatever hills you have.

So long story short, what we're talking about is a Volt that is a lot heavier on the electrical bits and lighter on the gas bits. Right?

It's been done. It works. It works well enough that unoptimized homebrew projects even work well, so it would work even better if done by a company that could crunch the numbers, apply the perfect engine etc, right?

I mean, shoot - repurpose a reefer Kubota diesel to turn over a genset and there's your oily bits done and done. I'd drive that.

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by basjoos

Or you get home to find the power is out at your house due to ice/heavy snow/wind taking down the power lines (something that can occur here up to a few times each winter) and you only have 5 miles left on your charge.

If the power was out, you couldn't pump gas at your local station, either.

[darcane]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Huh? The current crop of EVs are priced in the same ballpark as the upper end of what the major automakers offer - that is, not Ferraris, Porsches, or Bentleys. Though of course ANY new car costs more that I'm willing to spend on a vehicle (maybe when used ones get down under $10K or so), but other people obviously do spend that sort of money on their cars.

Price is absolutely a problem.

Chevy Sonic (gas): MSRP $15,145
Chevy Bolt (aka Sonic EV): MSRP $37,500

Nissan Versa Note (gas): MSRP $14,230
Nissan Leaf (aka Versa EV): MSRP $29,010

Even with the huge gov't rebates, comparing similar cars you get a giant markup for the EV.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by darcane

Price is absolutely a problem.

Why? You cherry-pick some examples to define as 'similar', e.g. a low-end Chevy against the Bolt. But if you look at the full range of Chevy's models (here: Chevrolet Cars: 2016 Chevrolet Prices, Reviews, Specs ), you see they range from a $12,660 to $55,400 for the base model. Adding options can push that up to $83,400. Change the nameplate to Cadillac, and the upper limit goes to $94K. So the Bolt is firmly in the midrange of GM's offerings.

Same with Nissan. Low end is $11,990, upper end $101,770, with options pushing it to $149,990, putting the Leaf firmly in the middle of the range.

So it's pretty obvious that people are willing to pay much more for cars than what an EV costs. The problem is here is your definition of 'similar'. EVs are, in many important respects, only similar to other EVs. Other factors such as seating, cargo capacity, and performance vary over the IC-engined price range. For instance, some of the most costly models are 2-seaters, or 2+2 coupes, with less interior room & cargo capacity than the EVs. Does that make them inferior in comparison?

[darcane]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Why? You cherry-pick some examples to define as 'similar', e.g. a low-end Chevy against the Bolt.

Really?

How am I "cherry-picking". The Bolt and Sonic literally share the same chassis and are the same size car. And the Leaf and Versa are not far off from that.

Would you consider the Spark and Spark EV to be similar? They are $12,660 and $25,995 respectively.

Would you consider the Focus and Focus EV to be similar? They are $14,090 and $29,170 respectively.

Both of these are the same car other than powertrain.


I'm sorry, but trying to justify the price of a Leaf by comparing it to a GTR is just asinine.