Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[dcb]

your plugs are not black though, that would be a sign of rich. If you don't experiment with something (i.e. fuel pressure) you will not learn anything.

This and Coyotes comments led me to believe it cannot enrichen enough, and this is the last I'm gonna say about it cuz time=money

from: EPA baseline MPG and the effect of E-10 - Tampa Gas Prices
"I had a car that ran good on regular gasoline but lost more than normal miles per gallon on E10. A small vacuum leak was the problem. Not enough of a leak to effect gasoline but just enough to keep the car from adjusting the fuel ratio to run good on E10. "


Think about it at least.

[robertwb70]

Running too lean can cause worse gas mileage just like too rich can and since more ethanol is required for the same power output it might actually help to bump the pressure up a little and see what it does.

[Nerys]

Originally Posted by dcb

your plugs are not black though, that would be a sign of rich. If you don't experiment with something (i.e. fuel pressure) you will not learn anything.

This and Coyotes comments led me to believe it cannot enrichen enough, and this is the last I'm gonna say about it cuz time=money

from: EPA baseline MPG and the effect of E-10 - Tampa Gas Prices
"I had a car that ran good on regular gasoline but lost more than normal miles per gallon on E10. A small vacuum leak was the problem. Not enough of a leak to effect gasoline but just enough to keep the car from adjusting the fuel ratio to run good on E10. "


Think about it at least.

Sure give me good reason. Seriously man. it sounds like you guys are grasping for reasons and just giving me random things to check "just because"

if there is a good reason then EXPLAIN it to me.

your quote deals with VACCUM not fuel pressure.

my plugs are the proper color. white would be lean black would be rich. My are the proper grey/tan they are supposed to be.

I already said I will test the fuel pressure.

if the fuel pressure IS FACTORY CORRECT give me a logical reason to screw with it?

if its NOT factory correct give me a logical reason to do anything but RETURN IT to factory stock?

If you can present a logical reason I would consider attempting it as you said time is money. you want me to spend time AND CASH to test a theory you won't even explain the logic of.

I did not say I would try anything. I said I would try anything within reason with logical explanation and not super expensive.

Give me a reason besides "because we say so" please.

[Nerys]

Originally Posted by robertwb70

Running too lean can cause worse gas mileage just like too rich can and since more ethanol is required for the same power output it might actually help to bump the pressure up a little and see what it does.

but they claim its only supposed to be a 1 or 2 % difference. thats not "that much" more ethanol really. I call upon my car to deliver orders of magnitude more than 1 or 2 % simply by mashing down on the gas pedal to accelerate hard (which it does just fine)

so if there is enough pressure for that logically there is enough pressure for 1 or 2 % (this is all assuming my fuel pump is putting out the correct pressure of course)

[dcb]

Running too lean can cause bad mpg, upping the pressure can help the computer compensate for e10 when it is out of adjustment range (because e10 likes 14.2 and not 14.7), that is called logic. Me continuing to point this out is not a productive use of my time so good luck. It's your dime on the regulator, but you won't learn anything by not experimenting.

[Nerys]

so are you declaring that STOCK Pressure IE if the pump meets STOCK requirements for pressure that this is NOT ENOUGH ?

you keep ignoring that part of my statement.

Experimenting without reason is a recipe for disaster and losing a lot of money if I frak something up.

SO explain. first you say maybe your pressure is too low.
I say OK I will test it
then you say increase it anyway. regardless if its correct or not? yes or no?

if yes provide a valid REASON to force my fuel system to exceed factory settings.

we are talking about messing with something that could give me a really bad day here. I need more than "just do it"

it seems like you are just creating things to check trying to find the one thing I will resist checking and using that to bail?

So now its not "fix your car" now its ok its the fuel now ALTER YOUR CAR to compensate ???

[Coyote X]

if you have one of those old freon recharge cans laying around with a gauge on them you can use that as a fuel pressure test gauge, it normally fits right on the valve

chances are the pressure is fine. But I would say bumping up the adjustable pressure regulator a small amount might get you better mileage. For the metro there are a lot of threads over on teamswift.net showing how to tune the fuel pressure regulator. I think just adding a shim to it would increase the pressure but I haven't really tried it so I can't say for sure. The reason is the computer is probably near it's upper limit on adding fuel so increasing the pressure makes the injector flow more and gets you back near proper tune.

Really without detailed instrumentation there is no good way to know exactly what is going on. But the kicker is even on my van with the computer retuned with a wideband O2 to run on E10 it didn't gain much in mileage over the stock tune. but it did run a bit smoother.

[Nerys]

thats cool. my mechanic has a proper gauge so we will use that but I will have to try the freon one to see how close it is thats a cool idea !

what I am unsure about is the why. if its already adding too much fuel why would I want it to add more? ie how could adding more fuel result in better fuel economy? (it runs smoothly on E10 thats not an issue)

in fact all my cars "run" just fine on E10. its just the FE sucks :-)

Coyote would upping the pressure a bit harm my car in anyway? how hard would it be to "undo" the change if it makes things worse?

I will go check teamswift for the thread on adjusting the regulator.

[mwebb]

remember
the thing about the clear plastic on the return line ?
if there are no bubbles in that , your fuel flow and pressure is sufficient for the demand / the need of your system .

to confirm
make sure your 02 sensor is cycling from 150mv to 850mv and back
if it is
your system is at stoich
14.7 to 1

do not
do not
do not
screw around with fuel pressure , measure it if you feel the need .

if these two simple tests are "good" then fuel flow and fuel pressure are both good.
fuel flow is as important if not more important than fuel pressure

test - do not guess .
==============================
you may not use spark plug color to determine fuel mixture .
it is not accurate or valid - stop suggesting it as someone may see that and believe it

you may use spark waveforms to see lean or rich condition - i can show you how .
but
you will need a way to view your spark waveforms - you need a scope
a high res scope , absent that or a 4 gas or a 5 gas
without them
you can not tell if your system is rich or lean

i have already showed you how to use an 02 sensor waveform to see if the system is rich or lean or cycling and at stoich
but
- no one seems to have learned that simple lesson -

test - do not guess

[mwebb]

although the system should be at stoich
fuel trims will be subtracting
and
more important , timing WILL be retarded which will results in INcomplete combustion with will add more combustibles to the exhaust stream

which will make the fuel trim issue even worse
========================
on speed density system
a vacuum leak
will
lower intake vacuum = higher load value = less timing and more fuel
it will never make the system lean

Originally Posted by dcb

Correction, it will result in a stoichiometric condition as long as the system can compensate for the additional air via the o2 sensor (and updates the trim values, etc). Coyote and others have noted that their cars are basically "pegged" on the "try to add more fuel" side on e10 as the ecu tries to bring the mixture back to stoic (14.2 ish for e10). Once at the limit of the system to compensate, any additional bypass air means leanness.

Though their spark plugs should be pretty clean if they are constantly lean.

It may also be a function of "driving on the o2 sensor", i.e. the internal maps are targeting 14.7 for the fuel schedule and the o2 compensation algorithm just kinda sucks when you get to 14.2 (large mixture "ripple")


EDIT: Nery's what fuel injections system(s) do your cars employ, all TBI by any chance?