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Old 10-22-2010, 06:58 AM   #351 (permalink)
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Do you have any theories besides "bad gas" as to why this is happening? Because saying bad gas doesn't satisfactorily explain it. I don't see the harm in experimenting w/pressure, gotta try something, it is a cheap experiment.

It wasn't clear to me that you could conclusively determine stoic (and it should be 14.2 on e10) just by the fact that the o2 sensor is cycling. the pulses are ultimately controlled by the black box known as the ecu and since that it is software, it is full of variables.

I would like to see what you are talking about re: spark waveform. That would be useful if true. How do you tap the lead?

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Old 10-22-2010, 09:00 AM   #352 (permalink)
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Hmm there are 2 wires to the o2 sensor. I don't think the ECU controls any part of the o2 sensor. appears to be a "dumb" system to me. IE the o2 does its thing and sends the data to the ECU and it simply reads and reacts to that data. as far as I know the ECU can not control any part of the o2 ie can not send a "command" to the o2 sensor.

does an O2 actually know what 14.7 to 1 is? or does it respond to variables in O2 levels and that "happens" to be 14.7 to 1?

or will it also respond to the new fuel and "happen" to be 14.2 to 1 ?

IE does the O2 care? either it works or it don't and sends the data to the ECU
IE does the O2 read 14.7 to 1 or does it just read STOIC?

If it actual reads 14.7 to 1 then its going to have a problem with E10 but if its just reads STOIC then it should not "care" if its E0 or E10 stoic is stoic.

now if the later ie if its perfectly happy at 14.2 to 1 how will the ECU respond to receiving this data? or is it also dumb ie see's stoic and is happy OR is the ecu instructed as to what stoic is? IE does the ECU jsut read "stoic lean rich" or does it read 14.7 to 1?

My question to you DCB is why is it that in your mind bad gas "can not" be the answer? BTW I don't think its bad gas. I think its "different gas" and my vehicles are not designed for it as well as millions of other vehicles on the road and 99.9% of people simple don't care don't know or don't even check.

how many normal people even BOTHER to check their fuel economy. remember the cars run fine they sound fine they operate correctly. They just use "more gas" than before.

mwebb - how exactly do I check the O2 sensor. I have that little DS Nano scope but I really have no idea "HOW" to actually use the thing.

not just in placement of the probes but in how to make it "read out" what I need.
 
Old 10-22-2010, 11:02 AM   #353 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
...
My question to you DCB is why is it that in your mind bad gas "can not" be the answer?
That is not a logical analysis of my statement. It very well could be "bad gas", but that is a nebulous problem to identify, some cars seem finem other dont. If you can identify something (i.e. fuel pressure or spark or faking out the ecu or ???) that conclusively takes a vehicle from a 25% mpg hit to a 3% mpg hit then a whole lot of people will benefit from that discovery and a lot of gas can be saved.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:51 PM   #354 (permalink)
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at what cost though? we have already gone through all the "simple" stuff.

your fuel pressure idea does not make logical sense. If you want me to muck with fuel you need to make logical sense. Your only reasoning is "because its something to try"

No my statement was not a logicaly analysis of your statement. but it was a logical analysis of your "trend" of statements :-)

its pretty clear you think its me and the cars and not the fuel. I think its the fuel.

the data backs me up. you have yet to find any data to back you up. SO FAR.

I would love nothing better than to find some strange simple thing on all 10 cars thats causing this.

its pretty hard to consider though when simply not using the E10 returns everything to normal 100% of the time. Thats a very hard fact to bypass.

how much can ethanol save us in fuel? hardly anything since costs are going up and any lower price of ethanol is 100%+ compensated for by the taxes you MUST pay in order to make it appear cheaper.

its not cleaner. its not greener. its not cheaper. it does NOT reduce demand on foreign oil. Explain to me what the advantage besides profit for the corn lobby there is in Ethanol?

While if we found an easy solution I WOULD TAKE IT to save money I am kind of hoping there is no easy solution and if I can educate enough people we can FORCE them to stop shoving it down our throats.

I am definitely going to look into the larger coil (though I have yet to hear one WORD from anyone on how I should go about that ???) since that would be a very cheap easy fix in theory.

But I don't have enough info. for example the coil on my cherokee has FAR more wires than the coil on my metro. This seems to indicate I could "NOT" take the coil from the cherokee and simply plug it in (even though we know that won't work since its clearly not a hot enough coil since the cherokee suffers too) but you get the idea.

HOW do I put a different coil in? how do I know a different coil will result in a hotter spark? will I need different wires and plugs to handle the hotter spark?
 
Old 10-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #355 (permalink)
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let us know how that goes.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:22 PM   #356 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
its fuel injected?? I am curious what more fuel pressure would do and how in the world would I alter that? another pump inline or something??? and why would E10 need more fuel pressure than E0 (just curious)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
Ahh ok I am no genius at auto mechanics so bear with me but would not lower mpg mean I am running RICH not LEAN?

running richer would use more fuel would it not?...

I also thought the injector controlled the pressure of each squirt ultimately? ie the Metro uses a recirculating fuel system it just cycles from the tank to the engine and back to the tank and the injector "takes" what it needs for each pulse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
"...A richer mix nets better fuel economy during acceleration and depending on how lean you are potentially during cruise."

a richer mix by every measure I could find worsens fuel economy. including the link DCB provided. If the car is running lean which fraks with the ECU causing it to "richen" ok that makes sense. but if the fuel pressure is FINE (I have not tested it yet) I see no reason to muk with fuel pressure or temperature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerys View Post
what I am unsure about is the why. if its already adding too much fuel why would I want it to add more? ie how could adding more fuel result in better fuel economy? (it runs smoothly on E10 thats not an issue)
To clarify and answer some of the above while trying not to forget anything I wanted to post.

Yes fuel increasing pressure can richen the mixture if it is needing fuel, if it has enough fuel and pressure is increased it will use the same amount of fuel to reach stoich as long as the ECU has enough room to cut fueling.

Assuming that the car is currently able to run at stoich with e10 and pressure in increased by say 5%. The cars ECU should be closer to having the fuel trims at 0 allowing for more adjustments and less likely to max out the adjustment. With that said increasing the fuel pressure can have a few added effects it increases the amount of flow in the injectors by doing that the time they have to be open. If the fuel is being sprayed/closed to late in the rotation it may not have enough time to disburse and burn leading to an incomplete burn a late burn (still burning as exhaust opens) one case it will think the car is running fine the other it will think it is rich. Both will lead to not extracting all the available energy.

Look into finding an adjustable FPR (fuel pressure regulator).

As for richer mix creating better FE is possible as there is more power potential from running rich and completely burning the mixture I believe the AFR for e0 that is best is ~13.8 (will have to check to be sure). If you are generating more power at a lower throttle position(TP) than a higher TP at stoich you can save fuel when accelerating, as long as the extra percent of fuel when rich is less than the increased percentage of air consumed at the higher TP. Running leaner it is more likely to have knock and I will assume that the metro has a knock sensor if it does you should not hear the knock as the car will adjust before it gets to that point. The knock sensor will reduce timing and reduce efficiency, this can go back to the last paragraph if the fuel is not burning at the right time or has some fuel pooling and burning late it can think it is knocking and reduce timing.

The O2 sensor reads the amount of O2 in the pipe and uses that to determine if the engine is at stoich or Lambda of 1, it should be accurate to adjust for all fuels.

Sorry I'm not sure about the ignition system but check out RockAuto Auto Parts for parts numbers then look at what other vehicles can use it and see if they have a hotter ignition system that you could use of an upgraded part that is not listed.


I know that I forgot some of what I was going to saw but I will eventually remember.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:59 PM   #357 (permalink)
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Hmm adjustable pressure regulator sounds far safer and more reasonable. If I can do that safely and affordably.

I looked up geo metro fuel pressure regulator and found this
FUEL INJECTION PRESSURE REGULATOR - JCWhitney

alas I think that is the "inside part" of the pressure regulator??

it seems pressure regulators that are adjustable are around $100 thats a bit expensive but now "out of the question" and I can get it in blue so I can kind of justify as an appearance upgrade as well.

I will have to find the regulator in my car and see if its something I can replace with a universal adjustable regulator.

thats not something I can do in the next few days I will have to save up the cash to buy that unless I can find one a lot cheaper.

I did find one for under $30 on ebay but I have to confirm if its EFI compatible or not. Maybe you guys would know ??

180574229674 (ebay)

is that compatible with Fuel Injection ie my car?
 
Old 10-22-2010, 11:20 PM   #358 (permalink)
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The regulator on a metro is built into the throttle body I think. So really the best bet is to modify the existing one. It still has to work and adjust the pressure based on manifold vacuum or it will really mess up your tune.

Really though the car is running good and getting about expected mileage out of E10 so I doubt it will do much. The only thing it would give you is a bit more room for the car to have something go wrong before it kills your mileage. Still not worth spending money on blindly but if you can do it for free...

As far as the increased spark. My metro has an msd 6al and a really high performance coil on it and it doesn't change the way it runs on ethanol at all compared to E0. I am not really sure what is needed to actually get better mileage on ethanol. I figure it will realistically have to be a car that was designed to run on it to actually get the only 3% loss that is expected. All the older stuff will just have to deal with it or remove it from the gas.

I am still planning on building a setup to remove the ethanol from the gas and hopefully be able to do about 25-30 gallons at a time. I just have to figure out the ideal way of doing it.

So how about a large glass fish tank that is sitting with one side like 5 inches higher than the other and a hole in the bottom on the low side going to a clear hose with a ball valve on it. That way I could put gas and water in there and once they are cleanly separated I could slowly open the valve and drain the water away till it is all gone or just in the tube. Then pump the gas out into my tank. Fish tanks are expensive to buy new but I could probably make something good enough out of glass and just epoxy it all together.

Here is what I am basing my idea off of: 500 ml Separatory Funnel Separatory Funnel : United Nuclear , Scientific Equipment & Supplies Just much bigger.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:59 PM   #359 (permalink)
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Damn. he just got back to me to confirm I could use it on EFI's - for $24 (found one cheaper) I might just get one anyway and put it "inline" and just set it to max (140 psi) just so I have a fuel pressure gauge in the car. (seeing as how the TOOL to actually measure fuel pressure costs orders of magnitude more than $24 :-)

as for the fish tank. that scares me. First the silicon will very likely NOT hold up to the ethanol. You might have to redo the whole tank expensively in something that can tolerate the ethanol. (it attacks EVERYTHING plastic I have tried so far)

DO NOT leave it in a gas can either. it attacks that too just slower.

They have "one piece" acrylic tanks (not sure if its ethanol resistant) but now your talking serious cash.

I also would not want an open top so the gas can surface evaporate for the 2 hours your gonna have to leave it minimum to settle properly.

I am still concerned about the water and whatever else I may be removing and still need a legal safe way to store the gasoline. If I do this long term I don't want to run afoul of the law.

I am still hunting for some 7 gallon carboys (solid glass small neck so easily sealed etc..)
 
Old 10-23-2010, 12:48 AM   #360 (permalink)
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how about cutting a 1 inch wide strip down the side of a barrel and gluing in a glass strip with some kind of glue that can hold up to the required use? I could always bend the bottom into a bowl shape and put the drain in the center of that. The lid of the barrel could be put back on and let it settle for however long it needs. I figure for a large mix it might take overnight to settle out all the way.

I am really not worried about the small amount of water in the gas that is left over. Like I said I ran water injection for a long time with 10% ratio to gas. It didn't do anything except clean out the engine and make the internals look new. If I could get 10% water suspension somehow I would have the perfect setup. But all the chemicals that would let you suspend water in the gas were pretty rare and a lot of trouble to get. 10% water 90% gas would always get me 10% better mileage and a bit more power, my old setup was just really unreliable and hard to maintain so I gave up on it.

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