Solar power

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by JSH

3 cents a kWh equals "exploding electricity costs? That increase would cost me about $3.50 a week even an almost all-electric house and an EV.

Are we not supposed to clean up the grid to avoid such tiny cost increases?

Save the gaslighting. That's about a 25% increase in 6 years that's kind of huge. Scale that up its doubling the price every 24 years. Yes something going up at more than 10x the rate of normal inflation is exploding the price. That begs the questions:
Where does it end?
What happened to renewables being cheaper?
Why are you defending the clearly indefensible?

There's also increased service fees, I have read that people in Californiastan complain their bill is up 50% to 100% from 2011. Increased rates always come with increased fees as people struggle to use less and replace used up appliances with new more efficient ones. The power company makes up the difference.

According to the IEA the average family households uses around 900kwh per month and that "3 cent difference" is nearly $30 difference on the average families bill. Good for you if that would only increase your bill $3 a month, no one cares. You're clearly not representative of everyone else.
Plus you're lieing if you say your bill will only increase $3 even with an electric vehicle. That means you are only driving hundreds or a hundred miles per month which is not normal or relateable at all to everyone else, or using a free charger. If a normal person drives 1,000 miles per month, uses 250kwh that would be a bill increase of $7.50 a month just for the electric vehicle alone.
Then if you're only driving 100 miles per month that's a waste of an electric vehicle. That battery is still degrading over time, maybe at half the rate compared like someone like me who drives their EV 1,600 miles per month.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Save the gaslighting. That's about a 25% increase in 6 years that's kind of huge. Scale that up its doubling the price every 24 years. Yes something going up at more than 10x the rate of normal inflation is exploding the price. That begs the questions:
Where does it end?
What happened to renewables being cheaper?
Why are you defending the clearly indefensible?

Renewables are cheaper - they aren't free. Adding capacity still costs money - renewables are just cheaper than building a new nuclear, coal, or natural gas plant. California added almost 2 million people in that 6 year time frame as well.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

According to the IEA the average family households uses around 900kwh per month and that "3 cent difference" is nearly $30 difference on the average families bill. Good for you if that would only increase your bill $3 a month, no one cares. You're clearly not representative of everyone else.

Well lets start off with what I wrote not what you read.

3 cents a kWh equals "exploding electricity costs? That increase would cost me about $3.50 a week even with an almost all-electric house and an EV.

$3.50 a week NOT $3 a month. That is about 1/2 a beer a week for a cleaner electrical grid. You can pick your own frivolous expense to use as a benchmark. However you don't care about clean air or CO2 so you aren't willing to pay a penny more for something you don't value. That is what makes the real difference in how differently we see a $0.03 per kWh increase for electricity.

As to the average person in the US - they are wasteful. Just like with gasoline we center our lifestyle around wasting energy and then complain if the price goes up. In the USA we use 2x the electricity per person as someone in Germany or France. 3x the average Brit. (I'm sure the European forum members get a good laugh at the people here complaining about energy prices when we piss away so much energy)

My wife and I live in a 1000 sq ft house that is all electric except for the hot water heater and average 6211 kWh a year. That includes the 3 years we had the Spark EV and did some but not all charging at home.

Now that we have the Bolt and installed a Level 2 charger we do more EV driving and more home charging. Last month was 1400 miles, 218 kWh charging at home, 311 kWh consumed by the car so about 2/3rd of our charging was at home. Even if I was paying for every kWh that would be $46.65 at $0.15 per kWh. When a 30 mpg gas car would have consumed 46.7 GALLONS of $5 a gallon gas that would cost $233 it seems petty to complain about paying $46.65 instead of $40.43 to drive those 1400 miles.

[redpoint5]

PGE allows people to opt into paying more for renewables, and that makes a lot more sense than increasing the cost to everyone, with those at the bottom suffering the most.

Perhaps it makes sense for electric utilities to do what the water utility does and make the first units of consumption very affordable, with progressively higher rates for additional units. The wealthy can then consume more electricity, but pay more too. That overpayment for electricity could be used for renewables, efficiency programs, or simply reduce the rate for the lowest tier of consumption.

There's a reason people are fleeing CA, and it isn't because they just can't stand so much awesome.

Regarding European consumption; yes it's less per capita. I imagine for the Brits, some of that savings comes from milder weather than the US, not to dismiss the fact that they do indeed consume less on many fronts.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

PGE allows people to opt into paying more for renewables, and that makes a lot more sense than increasing the cost to everyone, with those at the bottom suffering the most.

You don't solve an abstract problem that takes decades to develop by allowing people to voluntarily opt in in the feel like it today. It is human nature to delay action until the last minute or hope someone else will fix it for you.

If you want to help those at the bottom that are most effected yet unable to afford to adapt the most logical course of action is to directly pay for the upgrade.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Perhaps it makes sense for electric utilities to do what the water utility does and make the first units of consumption very affordable, with progressively higher rates for additional units. The wealthy can then consume more electricity, but pay more too. That overpayment for electricity could be used for renewables, efficiency programs, or simply reduce the rate for the lowest tier of consumption.

PGE already does that.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

There's a reason people are fleeing CA, and it isn't because they just can't stand so much awesome.

I wouldn't say 1 year of population decline during a pandemic where tech companies are allowing people to work remotely equals "people fleeing CA". I'd bet that given a couple years to work things out and California's population will start steadily climbing again.

Another reason for rate hikes - PGE rate payers are on the hook for $200 million in court settlement for wildfires just in the last 5 years. Utility board set's PGE's budget. They (and utility boards all around the USA) have been reluctant to approve budgets for maintenance and replacements on our ancient power grid because that would mean rate increases for customers - which will then complain to politicians. No matter the piece of infrastructure we only want to pay for new not to maintain and repair the old. So the maintenance is delayed until it fails and then rate payers are on the hook for the court costs and judgement against the utilities.

[freebeard]

If you want to help those at the bottom that are most effected yet unable to afford to adapt the most logical course of action is to directly pay for the upgrade.

State of Oregon does that. $2500 more rebate if you qualify.

I'd bet that given a couple years to work things out and California's population will start steadily climbing again.

Well, duh. It's a good thing the electorate can turn on a dime.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

You don't solve an abstract problem that takes decades to develop by allowing people to voluntarily opt in in the feel like it today. It is human nature to delay action until the last minute or hope someone else will fix it for you.

PGE already does that.



I wouldn't say 1 year of population decline during a pandemic where tech companies are allowing people to work remotely equals "people fleeing CA". I'd bet that given a couple years to work things out and California's population will start steadily climbing again.

Voluntary is always the way big problems must be solved, because ultimately any authority requires the buy-in of the majority.

I didn't realize PGE has a tiered schedule. That must be new.

Once you use more than 1000 kWh in a billing cycle, you move to a slightly higher price (additional 0.722 ¢ per kWh) for the rest of that billing cycle.

California lost residents 2 years in a row, and now with distributed work being more viable, there's less reason for the high paying tech businesses to exist there. They've got serious problems looming.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by freebeard

State of Oregon does that. $2500 more rebate if you qualify.

For a car. Most people don't have an electric car - they use electricity in their house.

How about insulation, windows, heat pumps, water heaters, stoves, refrigerators, washing machines, dryers, dish washers, etc?

Even the small programs that exist for the items above are generally tax credits not direct rebates so if you don't pay enough to pay income taxes you don't get the discount. Even if you do get the discount you have to wait months to get it and most poor people can't afford to pay up front with the promise they can get paid back in a year.

Those types of efficiency programs are also almost always for homeowners while the poor tend to live in rentals. Property owners have no incentive to pay more for more efficient appliances or other things to save their renters money. Paying more so someone else can pay less isn't good for the bottom line. Profits are already slim on rentals while the risk is high.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Voluntary is always the way big problems must be solved, because ultimately any authority requires the buy-in of the majority.

California's utility upgrades do have the buy-in of the majority. The public elects their representatives who set the direction. If the public doesn't like that direction they can vote for new people.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I didn't realize PGE has a tiered schedule. That must be new.

PGE the California utility not PGE the Oregon utility. The California PGE has 3 tiers. A baseline allowance, 100 - 400% of that baseline, and over 400% of baseline.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

California lost residents 2 years in a row, and now with distributed work being more viable, there's less reason for the high paying tech businesses to exist there. They've got serious problems looming.

Ah - I see California released their numbers. I was looking at the Census Bureau which shows a gain from 2019 to 2020 and a loss from 2020 to 2021.

California is losing their poor and replacing them with wealthier residents. That makes sense with the cost of living.

https://www.ppic.org/blog/whos-leavi...hos-moving-in/

[Drifter]

PG&E's schedule is tiered, but it also includes large fixed monthly costs. So the poor (and ultra energy efficient) also pay more per kWh than the (shrinking) middle class.

I agree that state regulators bear a lot of the blame for PG&Es woes. It isn't a free market, it is a regulated monopoly which means in exchange for having no competition, the company must cap their profits. Historically utilities earned a safe, but modest, return.

Corruption crept in when companies realized they could increase their income by increasing their expenses. Warren Buffett joked that utilities are the only businesses that earn more money when CEOs lavishly remodel their offices. So regulators began to clamp down on all expenses and CEOs learned to prioritize spending on visible projects, allowing infrastructure in rural & poor neighborhoods to fall into disrepair.

And being a regulated monopoly, consumers can't go to a competitor. In many counties, they can't even cut ties and go off grid due to public health codes enacted in the 1930s-1950s at the behest of utility lobbies.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

State of Oregon does that. $2500 more rebate if you qualify.

You'll find it just means prices are ~$2,000 more than other markets. Consumers factor in things like that when making purchasing decisions, and dealerships increase price to keep up with the artificially stimulated demand.

It ends up being mostly a payment to used car salesmen.

These idiotic schemes always have unintended consequences and rarely do much to address any ostensible problem.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by JSH

For a car. Most people don't have an electric car - they use electricity in their house.

I was way off base with that. I withdraw the comment.

Originally Posted by JSH

How about insulation, windows, heat pumps, water heaters, stoves, refrigerators, washing machines, dryers, dish washers, etc?

I buy all that stuff second hand.

You'll find it just means prices are ~$2,000 more than other markets.

Arcimoto don't mark up their MSRP out of state, insofar as I know.