Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-23-2013, 10:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
CFECO
 
CFECO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vail, AZ.
Posts: 552

X-Car - '11 Homemade 2+2

Velbly1 - '17 Toyota Camery XSE
90 day: 29 mpg (US)

Velbly2 - '13 Toyota Tundra
90 day: 18.03 mpg (US)
Thanks: 174
Thanked 60 Times in 56 Posts
A "Credit" from the Government , is a Tax not being paid, which IS paid by the working man somewhere down the line.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 12-23-2013, 10:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,097

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,310
Thanked 2,029 Times in 1,382 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFECO View Post
A "Credit" from the Government , is a Tax not being paid, which IS paid by the working man somewhere down the line.
The money is not "from the government." The money is private money used to trade in credits. The policy merely makes the market happen. What you're saying is tantamount to claiming that stocks in companies are taxes because the government has created the legal language that makes "public corporations" possible. Workers will have to make the stuff for companies to sell so that their stocks become valuable, but that does not make stocks in corporations merely a "Tax not being paid." Our stock markets, trading in incorporated entities, do not exist without the government constructing the legal parameters of the market. That's how our political economy works. Such credit swapping is not a stock exchange, but it is merely another market in value constructed by the state. It is not a tax, or a tax unpaid.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 11:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,554

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 29.14 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 26.65 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,911
Thanked 3,291 Times in 2,453 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
You're confusing the ZEV credits with a vehicle rebate program. Those are separate issues. The ZEV credits are not a subsidy. This is a public policy supporting emissions controls in California, a place with serious air quality problems in several regions of the state. The credits do not represent tax money. They are a form of crediting the production of low-emissions vehicles so that automakers will have an incentive to build them. The incentive is to industry, not consumers. Tesla is making money off the credits by selling them to other automakers. Public funds are not involved.
I don't believe I had any confusion, as what you have stated is my understanding. CAFE sets a cap on allowable CO2 emissions that any given company (or is it vehicle class?) can emit, and they can buy their way into exceeding these caps by trading with other companies, or by creating their own useless "compliance" vehicles.

My point remains; someone has to pay for this. That someone is always, 100% of the time, consumers. While the cap on CO2 may have been well intentioned, in the end, it will do absolutely nothing for the environment, some people in bed with the politicians will effortlessly become rich, and the consumer will be stuck holding the bill (via inflated vehicle pricing).

CO2 as a pollutant is not a localized problem to CA. I have never heard of a report suggesting health has been affected in CA due to CO2 level rise, or that crops have been failing due to localized CO2 levels.

If CO2 production is a serious enough concern, then it's a global concern requiring a global effort and global enforcement, with every nation regardless of size or status to participate equally. Failing this, there is no point in local regulation except to make a few rich, and many people poorer.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. -H.L Mencken.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
CFECO (12-24-2013)
Old 12-24-2013, 12:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,097

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,310
Thanked 2,029 Times in 1,382 Posts
The Cali ZEV program is not the Federal CAFE program. And ZEV is not about CO2 alone. ZEV is not about fuel economy. ZEV is a policy that targets a variety of Smog producing agents that are caused partly by auto emissions, NOX would be one. Smog is a real issue here in California, as it is in some other areas of the world. Public policy that puts vehicles on the road that don't add to the local smog problem is good for health, of children especially, and good for the regional economy as it prevents smog warning days that keep people indoors or at home. Since the credit trading program is designed as a market incentive it is not surprising that it is helping some people get ugly rich. I don't like that part of it either. But it is helping to field some innovative cars, all of which lack tailpipes. And a side benefit might also be getting more Americans out of the narrowest mindset of gasoline as the only go-juice.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to California98Civic For This Useful Post:
Pawtuckett (12-24-2013), redpoint5 (12-24-2013)
Old 12-24-2013, 12:48 AM   #25 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,744

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,579
Thanked 3,520 Times in 2,203 Posts
The government pays people to reproduce and I don't see anyone whining about that.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Frank Lee For This Useful Post:
California98Civic (12-24-2013), NachtRitter (12-24-2013)
Old 12-24-2013, 07:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mcrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,523

The Q Sold - '02 Infiniti Q45 Sport
90 day: 23.08 mpg (US)

blackie - '14 nissan altima sv
Thanks: 2,203
Thanked 659 Times in 474 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
The government pays people to reproduce and I don't see anyone whining about that.
So start a new thread on that topic I'm sure we can get people railing on that too
__________________
MetroMPG: "Get the MPG gauge - it turns driving into a fuel & money saving game."

ECO MODS PERFORMED:
First: ScangaugeII
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...eii-23306.html

Second: Grille Block
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...e-10912-2.html

Third: Full underbelly pan
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...q45-11402.html

Fourth: rear skirts and 30.4mpg on trip!
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post247938
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #27 (permalink)
CFECO
 
CFECO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vail, AZ.
Posts: 552

X-Car - '11 Homemade 2+2

Velbly1 - '17 Toyota Camery XSE
90 day: 29 mpg (US)

Velbly2 - '13 Toyota Tundra
90 day: 18.03 mpg (US)
Thanks: 174
Thanked 60 Times in 56 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrews View Post
So start a new thread on that topic I'm sure we can get people railing on that too
Oh Yea, thats for sure!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 01:41 PM   #28 (permalink)
NightKnight
 
NachtRitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,594

RippinRoo - '05 Subaru Legacy Wagon 2.5 GT
Subaru
90 day: 21.16 mpg (US)

Helga - '00 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
TEAM VW AUDI Group
Diesel
90 day: 53.91 mpg (US)

Olga - '03 Volkswagen Jetta Wagon
90 day: 46.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 303
Thanked 310 Times in 186 Posts
Isn't that what this thread was all about... whining that someone can take tax credits they are allowed to take ... ?
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NachtRitter For This Useful Post:
Frank Lee (12-24-2013)
Old 12-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #29 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mcrews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,523

The Q Sold - '02 Infiniti Q45 Sport
90 day: 23.08 mpg (US)

blackie - '14 nissan altima sv
Thanks: 2,203
Thanked 659 Times in 474 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NachtRitter View Post
Isn't that what this thread was all about... whining that someone can take tax credits they are allowed to take ... ?
No.
It's about government creating self serving programs that reward one group at the cost to another. It's about trying to control behavior beyond the scope of the powers granted.
But while your at it....really tired of liberal wanting to increase tax rates.
Maybe if they just filed the short form and didn't take their tax breaks we'd have plenty of revenue.... Just a thought.

Happy Holyday !
__________________
MetroMPG: "Get the MPG gauge - it turns driving into a fuel & money saving game."

ECO MODS PERFORMED:
First: ScangaugeII
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...eii-23306.html

Second: Grille Block
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...e-10912-2.html

Third: Full underbelly pan
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...q45-11402.html

Fourth: rear skirts and 30.4mpg on trip!
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post247938
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 03:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
NightKnight
 
NachtRitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,594

RippinRoo - '05 Subaru Legacy Wagon 2.5 GT
Subaru
90 day: 21.16 mpg (US)

Helga - '00 Volkswagen Jetta TDI
TEAM VW AUDI Group
Diesel
90 day: 53.91 mpg (US)

Olga - '03 Volkswagen Jetta Wagon
90 day: 46.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 303
Thanked 310 Times in 186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrews View Post
No.
It's about government creating self serving programs that reward one group at the cost to another. It's about trying to control behavior beyond the scope of the powers granted.
You mean like rewarding people if they have kids at the cost of those that don't?

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to NachtRitter For This Useful Post:
Frank Lee (12-24-2013)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com