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Old 12-23-2013, 11:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
And they get it from ?
From people who buy giant V8 powered blocks of lead.

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Old 12-23-2013, 12:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Please explain how your Mazda MX-3 could haul 1,000 lbs of mining equipment 27 miles up a sand wash and 4x4 "Cow Trails". Not everyone can drive an Econobox, some of need a truck, and instead of de-pleating resources by owning multiple vehicles it's more efficient to have just one. Now, we try to make that one the best it can be.
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFECO View Post
Please explain how your Mazda MX-3 could haul 1,000 lbs of mining equipment 27 miles up a sand wash and 4x4 "Cow Trails". Not everyone can drive an Econobox, some of need a truck, and instead of de-pleating resources by owning multiple vehicles it's more efficient to have just one.
Wrong. It's far more efficient to have several tools that each do their job well, than to have one that does every job poorly.

So I could haul that 1000 lbs of mining equipment - or hay, firewood, etc - with my '88 Toyota, which is smaller and gets better mpg than any current pickup I know of, and does a better job hauling because today's pickups been turned into mutant passenger vehicles. And when it's just me on paved roads, I can get 70 mpg in my Insight, all 'cause I'm using the right tool for the job at hand.
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakobnev View Post
From people who buy giant V8 powered blocks of lead.
why does the left always stoop to name calling??????
THis is a pretty serious thread with a very honest back and forth discussion..

Your answer is a L...... well, wrong.
your answer should be: "From people who buy....ALLL THE OTHER CARS."

There is not a unique tax on 'giant V8 powered blocks of lead'.

See if you answer HONESTLY, then the people buying Rabbit TDIs will find out that THEY are being taxed so someone can buy an EV.

When your HONEST, then the tax doesn't seem so fair....does it????
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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and let's not even discuss that ALL Teslas are owned by the well off. So the poor who buy a mazda 3 in san Antonio for $13,000 and finance it for 60 months are paying taxes so the rich can buy a tesla......right
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:01 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
CARB's ZEV credit system is not cash, at the start or finish. It is a policy-generated measure balancing "green" emmisions requirements with market timing flexibility. The purpose is to build on earlier policies that have already made Cali a hot spot for lots of electrics and natural gas vehicles. It encourages innovation by constructing incentives in a market while also allowing flexibility for the manufacturers. It's good industrial policy, and it is working. These streets around hereare full of electric and natural gas cars. I'm seeingan explosion of Volts and Model S vehicles inparticular.
Regardless if it's cash, tax credit, hot oil massage, or other; someone is paying for it. Subsidies for all vehicles should be ended, including electrics, hybrids, and gasoline. That goes for oil subsidies too.

There is already a huge tax incentive for electric vehicle owners to buy electric. They avoid 100% of the road tax that is collected at the gasoline pump, and they still enjoy use of all public roads.

This will eventually have to be corrected, but for now, I can certainly say that robbing Peter to pay Paul for his expensive luxury electric vehicle is an outrage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrews View Post
and let's not even discuss that ALL Teslas are owned by the well off. So the poor who buy a mazda 3 in san Antonio for $13,000 and finance it for 60 months are paying taxes so the rich can buy a tesla......right
That's exactly what is wrong with this picture. People that buy a Leaf get a Federal $8000 tax credit on top of local and state credits, and Nissan gets "carbon credits" even though most electricity is still produced by fossil fuels. In the end, there is no measurable benefit to the environment, rich people get their expensive vehicle for a substantially lower subsidized price, and the less wealthy have no incentive to buy. Those with less than $8,000 in Federal tax liability do not get the full $8,000. This is the opposite of a progressive system.

This rant is coming from someone that wants to buy the Leaf and can stand to gain from the subsidies. Just because it could benefit me doesn't make it right.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:27 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFECO View Post
Please explain how your Mazda MX-3 could haul 1,000 lbs of mining equipment 27 miles up a sand wash and 4x4 "Cow Trails". Not everyone can drive an Econobox, some of need a truck, and instead of de-pleating resources by owning multiple vehicles it's more efficient to have just one. Now, we try to make that one the best it can be.
This time of year my pants de-pleat.

I have saved quite a few good economical vehicles from the crusher thus I can have a massive vehicle hoard that SAVES resources.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:27 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Wrong. It's far more efficient to have several tools that each do their job well, than to have one that does every job poorly.
I totally agree and we have had this discussion before without perhaps resolving it. Here in the UK vehicle ownership is taxed (based on CO2 emissions - that is a seperate debate) and not how much it is used. If you want to tax stuff like CO2 put the cost on fuel and then the emissions are paid for at source. People who run thirsty cars (like me, cough) pay more or switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
This rant is coming from someone that wants to buy the Leaf and can stand to gain from the subsidies. Just because it could benefit me doesn't make it right.
+1 - Whenever a tax is levied it is the end consumer who will pay.

@McCrews - I didn't take it as a left vs. right thing - my statement above about who pays applies evenly.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Wrong. It's far more efficient to have several tools that each do their job well, than to have one that does every job poorly.

So I could haul that 1000 lbs of mining equipment - or hay, firewood, etc - with my '88 Toyota, which is smaller and gets better mpg than any current pickup I know of, and does a better job hauling because today's pickups been turned into mutant passenger vehicles. And when it's just me on paved roads, I can get 70 mpg in my Insight, all 'cause I'm using the right tool for the job at hand.
So for the $10,000+ I'd pay for the Insight, which I don't need at ALL since we have another car in the family, i could put that money into my 100 MPG X-Car. Plus not having the Registration,Insurance,Taxes, tires, etc. to pay even if the car is only rarely used, saves more money to work on my project.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Regardless if it's cash, tax credit, hot oil massage, or other; someone is paying for it. Subsidies for all vehicles should be ended, including electrics, hybrids, and gasoline. That goes for oil subsidies too.

There is already a huge tax incentive for electric vehicle owners to buy electric. They avoid 100% of the road tax that is collected at the gasoline pump, and they still enjoy use of all public roads.

This will eventually have to be corrected, but for now, I can certainly say that robbing Peter to pay Paul for his expensive luxury electric vehicle is an outrage
You're confusing the ZEV credits with a vehicle rebate program. Those are separate issues. The ZEV credits are not a subsidy. This is a public policy supporting emissions controls in California, a place with serious air quality problems in several regions of the state. The credits do not represent tax money. They are a form of crediting the production of low-emissions vehicles so that automakers will have an incentive to build them. The incentive is to industry, not consumers. Tesla is making money off the credits by selling them to other automakers. Public funds are not involved.

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